Source: Scientology
- Jason Beghe
Interview Pt.1
from Mark Bunker on Vimeo
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Jason Beghe on Scientology: The Full Interview Source:
http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/jason-beghe-interview/ Ce témoignage est le premier d'une star de cinéma piégée par la scientologie. Bien que non traduit en nous avons pensé utile de le présenter sur notre site car il montre parfaitement que la thérapie de la scientologie est bien une pratique pseudo-médicale et que son endoctrinement est sectaire et dangereux. Quant à l'excuse récurente de la secte invoquant de simples erreurs de jeunesse pour chacune de ses condamnations, après 50 ans d'existence ce ne sont plus des erreurs: mais des abus prémédités. L'acteur Jason Beghe décrit parfaitement le cheminement d'une victime de la scientologie ainsi que le traitement de faveur que la secte accorde aux célébrités (John travolta, Tom Cruise, Chick Corea, etc). Jason Begue nous sparle également des manipulations de non-scientologues comme par exemple celles concernant l'acteur ami de Tom Cruise: Will Smith. Nous
avons reproduit les commentaires du site http://blogs.villagevoice.com Si
nécessaire consultez le dictionnaire du jargon
scientologue. (Le
jargon de la scientologie: ICI N'hésitez pas à nous contacter si vous avez des questions Bon film Le Centre Info-sectes, 23 avril 2008 Source:
http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/jason-beghe-interview/ It was a great pleasure to meet Jason Beghe and his family a couple of weeks ago at their home in Malibu. Jason has a long list of acting credits in film and TV and has done extensive voice-over work through the years. His talents were also used in countless Scientology PR and training videos, including a recruitment video for Scientology’s Sea Org. He is the first celebrity to leave Scientology and publicly discuss his involvement and then disillusionment with the group. He made it to OT V on Scientology’s “Bridge to Total Freedom” and discovered the best way to get free was to get up and walk out the door. I think you’ll greatly enjoy this interview. That is, unless your name is David Miscavige. (David Miscavige est le grand patron de la scientologie. Il a succédé à L. Ron Hubbard dans les années 80) Mark Bunker Scientology: 1/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part1 Jason Beghe talks about his experiences inside Scientology
Scientology: 2/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 2
Scientology: 3/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 3 Actor Jason Beghe on life inside Scientology
Scientology: 4/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 4
. Scientology: 5/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 5
Scientology: 6/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 6
Scientology: 7/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 7
Scientology: 8/8 Jason Beghe Interview - Transcript part 8 Actor Jason Beghe talks about leaving Scientology.
Jason Beghe Speaking Freely PART 1 BEGINNINGS [0:00] Jason Beghe: It would be probably useful for me to go through this thing, because I'm still trying to discover what happened. I feel still a little lost and bewildered, and I don't quite get it. That's a common thing for me in my life, like some things, just politically. I can't get how people don't see that politician's a liar. I don't get it! For me, if I was going to write something, the concept or the title would be, "How I got into Scientology and why I got out." As a little kid, even before I could talk, I can remember being interested in people, really interested in people. I was pretty shiny and everybody wanted to pick him up and all this crap. I didn't like that. I could see people. I felt like [1:00] I understood who somebody was pretty well as a little guy. I might have had some judgement on it, but I didn't have a condemnation. I just thought, "OK, that's Dad," not just Daddy, but "Oh, ok, that's that guy and that's uncle Gino and this is this guy at the party," as a three, four year old kid looking around. At a certain point, certainly before first grade, I became very, very interested in, "Who am I?" not just, "Oh, that's that guy I know." I had some kind of a perception about a person. How I perceived the people in front of me, whether it was accurate or not-- I believed it was true-- was by looking into their eyes and saying who they are. I remember as a little kid looking [2:00] in the mirror, not looking at how do I look, looking and trying to say, "Who am I?" I would say: "Who are you? Who are you?" As a five, six year old kid I remember. At 8 years old, it was pretty intense. I'd never got it. I just thought: "Well, I guess, that's the life condition. It's too hard to self-perceive." As I was growing up and I played the fool and did normal, stupid things and drugs and whatever, it was always something that was in the back of my mind. I was always on a spiritual journey one way or another. Some new age shit, not a lot of organized religion. By the time I was fourteen, I had lost interest in that. I would read a lot, even to the [3:00] point where as a 21 year old kid, I remember I was into the spiritual teaching of this one guy who was originally teaching in French. I learned French just so I could read it in the original French, so it's important to me. It was all based on, "Who am I?" and, I guess, that Greek "know thyself" type of philosophy. Somehow I got into Scientology. Bodhi Elfman was in my acting class and my acting teacher who's a big disseminator, Milton Katselas, was ranting about some shit which was pissing me off, because it was wasting class. "Ah, you guys are auditioning me!" or something. He was pissed off and he wanted more unmitigated just adoration. He wasn't feeling like he was getting it. In the middle of his tirade I was sitting there. It was like [4:00] first thinking, "Who are these fucking people that are not flowing the correct amount of attention to the master?" Then I looked and I said, "Wonder if I am?" I said, "Do I trust Milton?" I said, "You know what, I really don't." That was a weird thing. I said, "Wow, I don't!" I thought, "Who do I trust?" I said, "Well at least my parents?" Nah, I didn't trust them. I was looking and I didn't trust anybody in the room. Then I had this realization, "I don't trust myself." In Scientologese, I found my ruin. I found my own ruin. For some reason I thought, "Oh, let me try and trust somebody. Let me try and trust Milton," which is what he was yelling and crying about in this whole big speech. I knew he was a Scientologist, so I said, "Bodhi, give me some book on Scientology." [05:00] I was doing a scene with him. He was like, "Oh yeah!" He was just a nervous little kid at the time. He gave me this big fat book called "What Is Scientology" with a lot of pictures. I took this book and I read it. I think I stayed up most of the night and I read the thing. I don't know if I got it word for word. I didn't clear all my M/Us [misunderstood words] for sure, but I got through the thing. I thought, "OK, if that's true, fuck, I'll go Clear. I'll try that. That sounds fine". I gave Bodhi the book back the next day. I said, "Take me to that big castle thing. [Celebrity Centre] I want to check this shit out." I was very excited. He brings me in and everybody's all excited. They've greased the path, because I had been on TV and shit. Everybody's really nice. I figured I want to do this Purif thing, [Purification Rundown] because I had done drugs and I could feel them in my body. I read the thing what the Purif's supposed to do and [6:00] I felt at that point, I hadn't done drugs in ten, fifteen years. I thought that was one of the biggest mistakes I'd made my life. I thought, "If this can really take that effect away...." I felt I had lost some of the shine I had had. I wasn't a drug addict, but I was a drug indulger. So I go there basically planning on doing the Purif, but they've got to give this tour. I must have gotten there at ten in the morning, and I swear to god, I'm starting to go nuts. I've done tests. I'm on the cans with some lady. I'm like, "Fuck me, can I just buy this course and let's get going!" Then they do this thing and they give me my personality test. It was all on the top of the thing [the score chart, meaning a good score] and they're still telling me that I'm fucked up. I was like, "Look." They want me to do this. I must have been there eight hours, I'm ready to pull my hair out. They say, [7:00] "You should do," some little course called Ups and Downs. I said, "Look, I'll do the course. Can I just do the Purif thing?" "Yes, yes, yes, and you have to do the TRs [training routines] and Objectives [Co-Audit] with it." "What's that?" "That's this course." I said, "Fine, let's go." I buy the course. I said, "I've been here," now it's 8:30 at night. I said, "Can I start?" I had to get a little oral surgery, so I said, "Let me do something. I came here for some Scientology, and all I got is everybody selling it to me. I never got to do any." I wanted to try the shit, and now it's 8:30. I say, "OK." They said, "Well, you can start your TRs course. You'll do the TRs." The TRs are these communication drills. Then you do the Purif and you clean the drugs out. Then you do the auditing, which is called Objectives, which is this stuff where you walk across the room and touch the wall and this kind of stuff. The end phenomenon is, [8:00] "firmly rooted in present time." I said, "That doesn't sound bad, I'll do it, OK. If you can deliver that, cool." I said, "Well, give me some Scientology. I've been here for nine hours or something getting nothing." So they say, "OK, you can start your TRs course." I go in, and I do this thing called an M7. Bodhi and a supervisor are helping me clear the words through. The first thing I ever did in Scientology was read "Keeping Scientology Working." It's a pretty heavy bulletin. Mark Bunker: Explain what that bulletin says. JB: It's a very interesting bulletin. First, it's updated, so you're reading the update. I think it was written in 1965 and it was updated in '70 and '75. Those updates are before you read the actual bulletin. [9:00] The updates are L. Ron Hubbard just going bananas. "This thing is true! It was true in 1965. It'll be true forever! If you just follow this, Scientology will never fail and it will take over the universe and we'll save all mankind, and we're the only hope for the world, so if you just apply this one policy, everything will be fine!" Now, in the book of the fucking policy, it's pretty heavy that if you're in Scientology an inch, you're in. This is the billion year contract shit. This is the heavy Scientology. "We are the only hope for mankind, and whether you get it or not, it's the truth, and we're not here to placate you. We're here to try and save the planet and we're the only hope for mankind, and so this is no game." That was the first thing I got. I said, "OK, we'll see." I couldn't say I believed that, but it was interesting [10:00] bold claim that made me say all the more, "Is this shit really that good? Let's go." Here I am. I've bought my little TRs and Objectives and my Purif. By the time I finished that it was 11:00 at night. I said to the supervisor, "OK, when do we start?" She said, "When can you come in to start the course, to finish up?" I said, "Let's start tomorrow. I can be here at seven in the morning." She said, "We don't start until nine." I said, "I came here to do something. I've been here all day. You guys say you've got a product." She came in at 8:00 for me, so I came in and I just started. I read all my shit in there and it sounded good. The first exercise is a thing called OT-TR0. Which is basically where you sit three feet apart from somebody. You cannot have any thinking mechanism. [11:00] You close your eyes and you're totally relaxed, but there's another person three feet in front of you doing the exact same thing. The exercise is to be in communication with that person and your environment, but fully confronting, Which he defines as "facing without flinching," so without thinking anything. If I'm doing with you I'm thinking, "OK. Mark, he's got that beard and he's probably hiding behind it." Then I'm flunking, because I'm thinking instead of just being there without any thinking. So I have to be able to be there. You do this, it says, until you get a major stable win. I said, "Fuck it." Here's my first Scientology shit, and I'm there with some whoever. I'm sitting there and I'm facing him without flinching, and I had a major, major stable win. What I did, according to Scientologists, [12:00] and I don't have any other nomenclature for it so it would work for me, but I went exterior. In other words, the concept would be your thetan, you, your soul, whatever you want to call it, that's who you are. You're not the body, I'm not Jason Beghe. It's like buying a new car. I'm the driver of the car. Basically, I went exterior. To get back to the beginning of my story, I felt for the first fucking time the biggest win in my life. I knew who I was. That question that I'd been asking since I was cognizant, "Who am I?" I knew who I was. This was huge for me. I said, "Wow," and this is not even that fucking auditing stuff they'd talked about. This is just some thing. I said, "Shit, that's awesome." [13:00] I was blown out of my socks happy. I was like, "Oh, so that's who I am!" I knew I wasn't this thing, because I sometimes would have this personality. Sometimes I was a phony, You never know if you're real or not. Then there's those moments. It's like, "Who are you?" I could see and I could create effects on people and stuff and all this growing up. It was really interesting. Why would this person like me? I knew why I liked them, but why would they like me? MB: You said back in class that you didn't trust yourself. Why didn't you trust yourself ? JB: I didn't know who I was. LEAPING ONTO THE BRIDGE [0:00] JB: I go down and I say, "OK, I want to buy this Clear thing. I'm going to do that, because that's enough for me." I just go right there. No reg [registrar] ever had to reg me. As a matter of fact, I used to reg the reges. They would fucking run because I'd do things to them, stuff like that. I'd fuck with them. I liked doing that. I go to the reg. I say, "I want to do this thing." I figur it's going to be between 5 and 10 grand, because the Purif thing was eleven hundred. Frigging Clear thing is going to be more, but I figured what the fuck. I had a couple of bucks saved. They tell me the price of the thing. That's another thing, the way they just can't say, "Oh yeah, the Clear, it's 1150." They just have to. they're not used to someone saying, "Let me get that thing." So that was hours and hours and hours. Of course, Bodhi's in there with me. He's my FSM, [Field Staff Member] and boy, he's going to get 10% and he was excited. He was broke at the time. [1:00] At any rate, it was fifty grand. I probably had sixty grand in my name at that point, so in three days I plopped down fifty. I said, "Let's go." MB: That's a huge commitment JB: Well, that's when everybody fell in love with me and David Miscavige called me. He wrote me a letter and all this shit. Everybody's got all this excitement about me. Part of the reason it cost fifty grand also was training. I said, "What's fucking training?" I just thought you sat there. I'd held those cans. I'd done it in the interview. It sounded easy. If its going to be that great, and I remember reading what Clear is, all that sounds pretty fucking good. All I'd done and sat there and I knew who I was. Probably the biggest win I had in Scientology was that first day. [2:00] So the training, I said "What's that?" "Well, you learn to be an auditor." I said, "Listen, I'm an actor. I'm not an auditor. That's cool." They're trying to get me to do this thing, and buy a fucking e-meter. I said, "Three thousand? What, for that fucking thing? It looks like a fucking transistor radio!" I'm like, "Oh man, OK," but I trust them because I figure they're delivering a thing. These are good people. I'm also looking at these people and it's these decent people. They're decent and I'm trusting! They are. So they sell me the training. Finally, the only reason I bought the training, they said, "It's half the wins." Oh, so in order to get the wins of the auditing and really go on Clear, you have to be trained. I said, "Well then, give me the training package." I bought a Class V training package because they said you had to be as trained as you're a Clear. I say, "What's a Clear guy?" So a Class V. [3:00] Now, you should know that a lot of people fall for this sales thing. My guess is, conservatively, there is probably five hundred million dollars, my guess off the top of my head, of unused training that has been bought. People buy it but they can't confront it. They can't face it without flinching. Me, I'm a Class V auditor. I fucking did it. I liked it, I thought it was cool. I actually got a lot of wins out of that shit. That was part of another reason why people liked me, because I was actually doing it, I didn't mind going on it. I would quit. I would say,"I don't want to go on that audition. I'm going on course." I was here to go Clear. I figured I can do this in about five, six months. What the fuck, let's go! I basically did that. I'd stopped to do a little bit of stuff to pay the rent but basically I was in the Org from eight in the morning. [4:00] I had my own auditor. She just audited me all day. I got all the other PCs [preclears] off her fucking line, and I just went Clear. Well, I actually went through my grades. It turned out I was a past-life Clear. That's why I was so able. MB: Explain what that concept is, a past-life Clear? JB: Well, what is that. Oh dear god, past life Clear. In other words, I was born in 1960. Scientology was developed in 1952, but LRH [L. Ron Hubbard] was doing Dianetics. [sighs] I'm having a moment. [sighs] See, this is part of the moments of coming out of Scientology, for me at least. [5:00] I think it might be something common to a lot of people. There are moments where you just feel a loss. It's not a loss of "I miss Scientology" by any stretch. It's a regret of having invested so much in something that is empty. So there are these moments, I just had one, where you just go, "whew." A Clear, even though LRH said that absolutes are unattainable, that's a state that he called Homo novis. You're even not a human being, not even Homo sapiens anymore, [6:00] Homo sap, as he calls it. You're a Homo novis, which means "new man" in Latin. It's a new state on the evolutionary track, more evolved than regular mortal humans. I was declared to have been somebody who had gone Clear in a past life, which would have been my last life. MB: Even though, supposedly, the tech wasn't there for somebody to go Clear. JB: Well, no. Dianetics was written in 1950, and he was talking about the state of Clear in Dianetics. I personally believe there's always something being re-released because it was something never quite being correctly done or understood. All the people that went Clear last lifetime, even though they may have been on OT VIII, [7:00] were pulled back in because in New Era Dianetics, which was a later way of going Clear, there were different criteria for what was a Clear, and getting rid of an engram, which is a whole thing. So you had to go in and get all the postulates off. MB: At your point, what were you supposed to achieve as a Clear? JB: Well, here's the thing. This is a funny thing for me. If you read Dianetics, the state of Clear is someone who is never likely to get sick. He has a perfect memory. It is even intimated, and this was in 1950, that he could be immortal. He may never die. It's pretty funny. So that's what the state of Clear is. [8:00] They define it as "no longer has his own reactive mind," which is a rigged game to get somebody to take OT [Operating Thetan] levels which is their real money maker. There's a guy on the internet apparently. He's saying he'll give a million bucks if someone can demonstrate OT. I'll give a million bucks if to anybody that can demonstrate Clear. There's no fucking Clear. There's no Clear. There's no Clear. I mean, just looking at Dianetics. There's no Clear. What are you kidding me? Clear? I was like, "If I get this, that's what I was going for." It's too good to be true. That's basically it. That goes back to that feeling of loss. You know what it is? I'm sorry to say, [9:00] I'm actually realising something for myself right now because this is cathartic in a way for me. I'm no stupid guy. I grew up in New York city and I never got mugged. I've been through some seriously bad neighborhoods, but I remember one time I was living on my own down in the village. I saw this guy running across the street, and he had a VCR. This is back when VCRs was a new thing, like a plasma TV or something. [laughs] He'd obviously stolen the thing, and he was like, "Hey, you can have this for fifty bucks." I bought it, took it home, and it was full of bricks and shit. I felt I got conned. That's the feeling of loss. Going back, you were asking about Clear. It's a con. It's a con. [10:00] This is segueing, but this is something that I don't know if it'll be interesting. There's a book that LRH wrote called "The History of Man." It talks about a lot of these traps that can catch a thetan, which is something that has no matter, energy, space, time or location. It can catch a thetan, but he's got interesting curiosity. There are these things called theta traps, and the best theta traps are ones that the thetan runs on autopilot. If I'm trying to enslave somebody, the last thing I want to do is have to worry about fucking keeping the key and the lock. The best traps, you get a guy that'd just keep himself in jail. [11:00] That's what Scientology does. You just keep yourself in jail, and then that's it. It's a perfect theta trap, because you believe it and you're investing your time and your money. You can't be a fool. That's too much to "confront."
[0:00] MB: When you were a kid, you were saying you were able to look at your dad or your uncle and you could really perceive them and understand them and know them. JB: Yeah. MB: When you looked around at the people in the org and you trusted them, do you think that there was a misperception there? JB: I've got to be honest. The more I got in, the stupider I got. As I get out, that's my perception. Christ, you don't even ask questions! That's what I was trying to remember the other day, [looks offscreen at Tory] that I was going to say that I had forgotten. They made me a commissioner of CCHR. I'm talking to Tory. MB: And the CCHR is? JB: Citizen's Commission on Human Rights. It's a way to try to destroy psychiatry and psychology. I was like, "Fine, I don't give a shit," so they put my name on their stationery. Fine. That got me out of an ethics cycle or something. So I say, "OK," [1:00] but I would go, and I always had questions. You know? Even L. Ron Hubbard, would always call it "the psychs." He would rail about them and how terrible they are and they're the sole cause of destruction. I kept saying his own technology says that's a generalization, "the psychs." Who? "Psychs on the whole track." That means all psychiatrists for billions of years in the history of "theta". It's so general. That's a characteristic of a suppressive person, one who speaks in generalities. Another one is, a person who has overts, which are sins or crimes committed, somebody who's antagonistic or angry. He seemed very antagonistic and angry about psychs, so I was thinking he must have overts on them and he's speaking about them in generalities. I went over to CCHR and got tours ad infinitum by the director, who is [2:00] this woman Jan Eastgate. I would ask questions and she'd write me up in ethics chits and shit. I'd say "Fine, yeah. I got the question. I don't fucking know." I would say, "If you want me to represent Scientology's viewpoint, and you go to their museum, it's all 'The psychs are bad! The psychs are bad! This is a bad thing, and Hitler, and they're responsible for child pornography and rape, and it's all the psychs!'" I say, "OK, that's their viewpoint, but if I'm going to get into a discussion, if you want to prepare me to be a spokesman for this shit, I've got to know the other side!" I kept asking, "Can you give me the other side?" They won't give it to you! Every time I would push it, it'd be like, "Honey, there's no way to get into the argument! If all this is true, there wouldn't be anything! I've got to know their viewpoint. How am I going to win the argument?" You know what I mean? They wouldn't give me the viewpoint! Then they started to write me up [3:00] because I'm doubting. I'm not saying I'm doubting or nothing. I'm just waiting for the data, which is this whole big thing about learning how to think correctly, this other course called the Data Series. Basically you have to get all the data. They won't give you any fucking data on certain things, and especially about this! There's nothing written in all the tomes of Scientology about psychiatry, nothing, other than, "the psychs are responsible for all your sexual problems, because they implanted you as a thetan zrebeteten years ago" I realized that on my research of OT 10. "Oh, well then it must be true, because LRH says it's so." You see how at a certain point you get conned. I was saying, "Where's the fucking data?" I'd say it to everybody. They'd show you. Nobody's allowed to tell you anything, so they'd pull out a reference. They always pull out this fucking reference called "Pain and Sex." [4:00] He's talking about, pain and sex are these things that are really just dogging people and bothering them, and it's a really difficult thing that we're trying to help you with in Scientology. There's maybe two sentences in there where LRH says, "Through my research on the whole track of OT something-or-other, I've just discovered that this is all because of psychs." That's the reference they tell you to prove that the fucking Hitler and rape is a thing. I'm like, "Honey, that doesn't quite handle it," but they don't get it. MB: I look at this as an outsider. I don't have a vast knowledge of this, but to me it seems like the psychiatric field sprung forth in the 1800s, not thousands of years ago or millions of years ago. How are there psychs on the whole track, if there weren't psychs? JB: These are the evil people. [5:00] These are the evil beings, actually. These are the evil beings, and they've been around. You hear about Xenu and all that shit. Xenu was a psych. You got it? MB: So he just wasn't a practicing psychiatrist. JB: He wasn't doing psychiatry. No, he was practicing Xenuism. You got it? Now they're called psychs, so you'd better beware! Am I right? Fuck me. [laughs] God damn. MB: One time I visited the Celebrity Center, and just walked in late at night and looked around and said, "Well, what goes on in here?" JB: Right. MB: They woke up the projectionist to show me the orientation video. JB: Oh nice, yeah. MB: I had my own private screening that night. They had some poor Sea Org kid, maybe 15, 16 years, old babysitting me in the theater. JB: Right. Well, you're not allowed to watch the movie alone because you could get an M/U. He was watching to make sure you didn't have any "lack of mass" kind of shit. [6:00] MB: He was making small talk before that, and he was saying "Well, you remember the Salem Witch trials?" "Yeah." "It was the psychs behind that." [laughs] "Well, I don't think there were psychiatrists back then." He went, "Oh no no no, not the psychs. I mean the pharmaceutical companies." JB: Oh dear goodness. MB: No, not quite. JB: See, these are the kids. You dash off a get-well-soon card and that's about it, because it's sad. This is the interesting thing. It goes back to answer further the question of "What did you perceive?" I avoided the question by saying I got stupider, but let me tell you something. These are good people. These are some of the best people you can meet! These are people who really want to help. [7:00] They're willing to give up their entire life and their own personal ambition to help others. That's pretty rare. Generally you would say it's a pretty decent person. That's the thing. I would say "I'm not a bad person." If I saw me walking around there, I'd say "OK, he's OK." MB: When you say you got stupider, how do you think that happened? JB: I'm only out of Scientology about a year or so, less? Less than a year officially. It's a funny thing in Scientology. You feel as though you're waking up to the truth or reality or what really is. [8:00] What you're doing is waking up to the reality of Scientology, not the actual reality, the reality which is the agreed-upon universe of what is. Basically, in my opinion, the best thing you can be is yourself. That's who you are. There's degrees of which you can actually become yourself. That's probably what the whole spiritual interest is. For me, I don't really know. Scientology, the trick of it is, it makes you feel as though, and you're sold that you're actually becoming yourself. My name's Jason Beghe. I was becoming Jason Beghe, the Scientologist rather than, [9:00] not even "Jason Beghe," but "me." You say, "how do you fall for this shit?" Go back to my first fucking win, because it's me. It's me. So there is you. I can't explain it. Through pressure of the group? This is the thing I'm trying to get. I've never been like a guy, "Well, I've got to get a pair of those shoes because everybody's wearing them." It's not been, "Oh, I've got to find my own if everybody's wearing those things." Maybe that's how I got out to some degree, that I always try. I'm not saying that I never bought a BMW or whatever the fuck people want to do. [10:00] To me, it gives you a way of thinking that, at least for me and from what I observe of others, is not native to that person. As I said before, I'm no Dalai Lama, but I think that the best thing you can be is yourself, and that if you can do that truthfully, it'll be beautiful and successful and interesting. I don't know about success like how you'd define it, but it'll be a worthwhile time spent. What happens is, you are sold. Again, the trap is good because you sell it to yourself. If you're not on course, you're wanting to be on course or you should be on course. You've got your own self in jail. It's an autopilot gig. It's quite good. I think there's some hypnotism in there or something. [11:00] I don't quite know, but it's quite surprising. Here's an example. you start the ethics technology. You start thinking, "OK." You start thinking in the terms of conditions of existence that he laid out, and that these are behaviors. Now you're not just going, "You know what the fuck? I think I need to take a walk. I think I'm going be an insurance salesman, and that's my truth." You have to go through these steps, and do this. It's retarded. It's not true. It's not true. I did ethics cycles and conditions and nothing changed. I've seen people who've done them and they've changed, so I don't know. Whatever! There's a placebo effect. I don't quite know. [0:00] JB: Tory, how many times to you do the PTS/SP course? Tory Christman: God, you know. It's like, on and on and on. JB: Every time you go PTS, which is the human condition, you've got to do the course over and do this shit. Let me tell you something. Thats another racket, PTS. MB: I'm not sure if we've got a PTS description on camera. JB: PTS, potential trouble source, so all injury, accident and illness. Listen to those three words. All-- all!-- injury, accident, illness-- [pretends to be in pain] Ow! ooh-- is all because of PTS. Everything. Everything negative that happens is because of PTS, which means you are a Potential Trouble Source. "Wow, that sounds weird. A potential trouble source?" So, in other words, not only did you just slip and split your lip, but you better get away from [1:00] this guy because if you're near him you're going to split your lip too and your business is going to fail. He's a Potential Trouble Source, so you've got to take him out. It's like you don't come to school with the flu. This is like the spiritual flu, so it's heavy shit. Now, there's only one reason that you are a potential trouble source. The one reason is that your are connected to an SP, which is a suppressive person. Now this is the two and a half percent of awful people like Tory-- TC: [laughs] JB: [laughs] --who are fucking it up for the rest of us good people. [laughs] Oh, it's a funny thing. It's funny, as I zip around. This is my best friend, This is a guy that, in 9th grade I met this guy. [2:00] I saw this guy. He came to my school at 9th grade, and I saw this guy. I was a gregarious kind of kid, and he was new. I saw him and I said, "You know something, you and I are going to be friends." I think that's the first thing I ever said to him. I was right. He's a big famous actor now and an amazing guy, David Duchovny. David, my best friend, I'm talking about a friend, our relationship was adversely affected by my being in Scientology. He was very cool but he wasn't into it. [3:00] He wasn't. He was happy for me. He never gave me any fucking thing about it. I think his wife, I perceived that she was a little more [push away] like that. They were right. Then everybody in Scientology-- not everybody. That's a generalization. I'll give you people. Marty Rathburn, Susan Watson, Dave Petit, a couple of RTC [Religious Technology Center] terminals said, "Well, he's a one-one SP," in other words trying to destroy my relationship with him. It affected our relationship. One-one, as a definition, is covertly hostile. "Hey man, I'm your friend. I really am (you fuck)." That's covertly hostile. [4:00] We'd stay in communication, but the further I got in [pulling back] like that. That's a loss, let alone my family. My family, shit, they don't fuck with me or anything. I've never been closer now that I'm out, because they weren't into it. Everybody was totally respectful of me. My mother said one thing once, "I just don't think it allows for the grace of God," or something. That was all, because she's a big Christian thing. Of course I whipped out the wiz book and gave her the right answer and handled her. This is the other thing I was thinking of when I was laughing. When I got out, one of the first people I went to see was David. [5:00] His whole family was out of town and I was just moving here. Now we live in the same city, and so I went over to his house. We were just walking around. We talked about it a little bit, just a little bit. I just said, "Oh, by the way," and he said, "OK." We started to talk a little bit about OT levels and stuff like that. He doesn't watch South Park or whatever the fuck. He doesn't know this whole story. "So, what is that shit? What is that? What were you into? Why? What is the OT?" I don't know if he asked, but somehow I explained to him. Here I am. I just had out the door. It did so much for me, but I started to explain to him the story of Xenu and the Loyal Officers. I couldn't get a third of the way through the story and we had our faces on the floor. We were laughing so hard. You couldn't even talk, because it's retarded. It's insane. [6:00] MB: What was your reaction, though, when you saw the packet with the info? How did you react? JB: Well, that's the other thing. Like I told you earlier, I had been on a spiritual journey long before Scientology. This data is as different as the word "thetan" is from the word "spirit." It's about that different. The Bible talks about the devil and demons. It's nomenclature. "Entities" is what they talk about in these New Age religions. All that stuff about thetans, [7:00] I was in Scientology heavily, so I was a little bit like this, [leaning back] but I thought, "OK." I remember that was my thought. "OK, well, that's obvious." It wasn't that big of a surprise to me. It's one of those moments. Now that I think back and really look at it, there was a moment where I could have woken up there, but you choose not to. That's part of the reason why Scientology's expensive. Well, if you're paying a lot of money for it, it makes it more valuable and you give it more. I was listening to the fucking radio just today. There's this guy. He was working at MTV in New York. This was just on NPR today, this guy. He was on this art channel on NPR. He was working at MTV, and they were talking about packaging and marketing and how important it is. [8:00] He was talking and saying it was important. This other guy said, "Its not that important." He said "Bullshit!" and they had a little bit of an argument. He said, "Well, let me see. Let me show you something." He was in New York, and he grabbed a little garbage. He put it in little plastic boxes and he put a little stamp on them, dated them and numbered them. He's selling them for fifty bucks each, as art. It started at ten bucks, and then it was a little gift. Now that they're fifty and one hundred bucks each, the people are actually calling them art. It's an interesting thing. Again, you're driving the car. It's just that you don't realize as a Scientologist, because you're in the trap, that the car's got a pre-rigged route. It's called the Bridge. You think, "This is the easy life. I've just got to sit here and the car basically drives itself. All I've got to do is show up at the church and I'll be happy." [9:00] There you are, and you're on the Bridge to Total Freedom. To total freedom? Yeah, they free you from yourself. MB: That's one of the brutally ironic things about Scientology, when they have a slogan, "Think for yourself." You find yourself thinking exactly what Scientology wants you to think. JB: No, but you're doing it yourself. That's why it's pretty good. It's really insidious. It's so bold and bald-faced that you just would never suspect it, you know. It reminds me. Remember, I used to smoke cigarettes. I was smoking cigarettes and I wanted to quit and I couldn't quit. I was smoking, smoking. Then these new cigarettes came out from American Spirits. I see they're supposed to be all natural. The fucking thing on it said "Addictive Free." I said "Bullshit!" I start smoking them, and I'm down to two cigarettes a day. [10:00] I'm fucking disseminating the shit out of these things. They're the best cigarettes in the world! I'm telling everybody, "These are addictive free. I'm hardly smoking at all! Look, it's addictive free." "That's not 'addictive.' It says 'Additive Free.'" I went right back to a pack a day! You know what I'm saying? You're playing the game by yourself. MB: Well, I don't think it's fair to say, "by yourself" because it seems like this entire structure of Scientology is built to funnel you onto the Bridge and keep you on the Bridge JB: Yes. Again, I'm not an expert. This is one of the things I can't fully confront yet. I can say in my opinion that the lion's share, at least well over 99%, of your Sea Org people are the truest of the true believers. They are trying to help you, and they'll not take "No" for an answer. [11:00] It's like your son wants to touch the stove. You're willing to physically stop him even though he's sure that he wants to see that beautiful blue thing that's dancing there and touch it and maybe even put his hair in it or something. He doesn't know what fire is. They are willing to give their lives, practically, to keep you on the Bridge because this is for your own good. That's just one individual, and that individual is doing his job. There's not a lot of them that need to be told to get up in the morning. They're on autopilot too, but the whole group becomes this living, breathing thing. The thing that I haven't quite confronted is, I can't quite see what the fuck anybody gets out of it. [12:00] COB, does he want 300 million dollars? Is that what it is? Does he want a billion dollars? MB: COB is David Miscavige. JB: David Miscavige. Is that it? Is it just this power hard-on? Is it, or is it just insanity? I wonder. LRH, was he just crazy? Maybe he was an SP, whatever. I don't know. The jury is out for me. I don't have it. Like I said, I can't confront it. I know for me, if I wanted a billion dollars or something like that, I couldn't do that. That wouldn't be a way for me. I couldn't do it! I'd probably kill myself. I just couldn't live with myself like that. [13:00] I certainly couldn't look my son in the eye. That's me, but maybe that's me, PTS. Maybe I'm fucked up. Maybe that's my conscience, whatever the fuck that is. I don't know. I haven't quite had that confront of truth or evil, depending what you want, but I don't know what anybody wants out of it. All this money is a big thing. Where does it go? MB: We see recently, there was a video released of Tom Cruise's birthday aboard the Freewinds. I understand that there was six figures spent on the birthday party for Tom. That's parishoners' money going to keep Tom Cruise happy. JB: Well, they figure that's worth it. According to him, just him being Tom Cruise per their viewpoint, he probably brings in a hundred thousand a day for this church in terms of interest and positive public relations. Six figures ain't dick. [14:00] MB: Right. JB: You could throw a party for him every day and it wouldn't really put a dent in their bank account. I don't know. A party? People like to get mad at COs [Sea Org commanding officers] who take these big things and Tom Cruise's party. The fucking Freewinds, let me tell you, is a fleabag. It's not a fucking nice boat. I've been on that thing. I got sea-sick every time. MB: Speaking of Tom Cruise, you were talking earlier about-- JB: [laughs] MB: --your identity being stripped and being replaced with that of Scientologist. Certainly you can see that in Tom Cruise and the recent video tape that was released. JB: I can't speak for Tom Cruise, but I would suspect that that's what's happened. He was off a while, and he's in gung-ho. [15:00] I'm sure he went through a big ethics cycle and woke up, because he probably had some trouble with his wife and found his ruin. Maybe he has trouble with girls or something like that. That might be his whatever. I don't know. MB: At any rate, he seems like the ideal of what a Scientologist should be, dedicated. JB: Well, I was in there. COB called me the poster boy for Scientology. I was as gung-ho as you could get. MB: How did it turn around for you? Why did you start to doubt? JB: It not only didn't work anymore. The more auditing I did, which I was more and more encouraged to do, the worse I got. I was starting to go fucking crazy. It was fucking me up. MB: How far up the Bridge did you go? JB: I'm a Class V [auditor] OT V. I've done all my Ls. [L10/11/12 rundowns] I've done a lot of [16:00] all those other courses, Data Series things and, blah blah blah. [0:00] JB: You know what's interesting to me? There was a big thing about maybe two years ago or a year and a half ago that everybody wanted you to listen to your Congresses. A Congress was this meeting that LRH had starting in early 1960s. He would get a group of people together and he would give a series of lectures on X. It really had to do with clearing because all these the Congress were having to do with clearing. Remember that I'm talking about the Congresses. I'm going to give you the unabridged version. Is that OK? MB: Sure. JB: Are you sure? MB: We've got time. JB: When I was in that TRs course my very first week in Scientology, again, I'm an actor so [1:00] communication is something I kind of do for a living. That's a whole course about communication, so I felt like I'm pretty good at this naturally. One of the exercises, they use "Alice in Wonderland" which is full of these wild kind of sentences. You take it and you read it to yourself. Then you deliver it as your own. That's a TR1. TR2 is properly acknowledge somebody. So they say, "Off with your head!" and you say, "Thank you," to make sure they know it and end it. There's all these other things. Now, here I was doing this TR. It happened to be TR2. Somebody said, "Off with your head!" and I said, "My god!" They flunked me and I said, "Why?" They said it's supposed to be just, "Thank you. Good," whatever. I said "No, read the fucking thing. It says 'appropriate acknowledgment.'" Why do you think he chose "Alice in Wonderland"? They bring the head technical person of the fucking place. They're all invalidating the shit out of me, and [2:00] I'm sticking to my guns. I finally am crying. I said, "You guys are fucking wrong! Who the fuck talks like that?" [woodenly] "Thank you. I got it. OK. Good." "Wow," that would be way too much. "Wow!" OK, I totally duplicate that: [woodenly] This is the way you're supposed to talk. I'm really talking to you, but do you see how I'm not? So it's there. I'm doing-- this is perfect in terms of their idea. Alright. I got it. That was good TRs. It wasn't excellent. Excellent TRs is more like this: You know, you're really conversational but I'm not moving and I'm really looking at you and I'm ready for everything and I don't blink and and I'm not really-- Your eyes stink. It's that kind of fucking deal. Sum gum war sue up. That's just a private joke. [to Tory] You know that one, right? Moo goo gai pan. These are words that you can talk gibberish in Scientology to help you learn your TRs. [3:00] One of the things written down is "Sum gum war sue up." That's not a sentence. That's written like Chinese, "sum." So at any rate, I'm in there and I'm crying and shit and blah blah blah. Finally I stop and I toe the line. I'm like "Thank you. OK. Good." Then about four years later in some event COB David Miscavige says ,"Hey there's been this big breakthrough in this Golden Age of Tech!" Fucking piece of shit. "Here's the real thing! People have been doing the improper acknowledgment! You're supposed to have, it says, 'appropriate acknowledgment.'" They have LRH on tape. Somebody says, "Off with your head," and he goes, "My god!" That's the right way to do it! So here I was, first day of school and I had it right. You're asking me how I got out. I'm in the fucking thing and they keep telling me [4:00] I've got to do this action and I've got to do this. You've got to do this sec-checking [security checking] and all this shit. I'm like "You fucking people, I wouldn't show up here if I wasn't fucking ready." They would be sec-checking, which is basically asking me for my crimes and charging me thousands. I probably paid 50 grand in sec-checks to get this shit together because everything was fucked up, so it must be that I'm fucked up. I kept saying "These sec-checks are killing me!" This is the standard technology. This is the Golden Age of Tech. I finally said, "You know something, motherfuckers? I don't care. You could get LRH to fly down here back from Target 2 and tell me that I am fucking doing it wrong. I am not going in session and doing this shit. You guys are fucking killing me. I am here to tell you you're fucking me up! So I'm out of here until you fucking wake up, OK?" Then they come back to my house and they're offering me free auditing. I say, "Show me where free auding is standard. You're not giving me standard [5:00] tech. Now you want to fix it by more unstandard shit? Get the fuck out of here! You ask Griffee Blythe and the whole rest of those motherfuckers at AO [Advanced Org] if this is a lie. It's the fucking truth and I'm out!" Then they call, and I just went on course because I couldn't take any more of this fucking auditing. It was killing me. So then they come out with this thing. "Jason, you have to see this!" I wouldn't even go to events, because I'm at events and everyone's like, "Hey, how you doing!" I'd go, [forced smile] "Good!" I just couldn't fucking lie anymore. I'm ready to fucking die. I told them, "I'm not going to participate," because my role was like [smiling] "Jason Beghe." I couldn't be like, "Well, to tell you the truth I'm fucked up. I hate OT V and everything's going fucking shitty and it's fucking not working and it's costing me a shitload of money and I'm more unhappy than I've ever been in my entire fucking life." MB: What would happen if you spoke truthfully? JB: I would try. I would talk to RTC and all these things, but it's bad PR. It's none of anybody else's [6:00] business. You're not supposed to talk about your case. So this is going on. [to wife Angie] Honey, this was going on. I was in Scientology maybe 10, 11 years? The last 8 years like that, and I'm paying fucking money. Maybe I paid a million fucking dollars. I don't know. I don't even keep track. OK, here, another fucking thing. "This is going to work." "You think so?" "Yeah, we finally got it!" So anyway on this fucking thing I'm out of the thing. I'm doing course and I'm just off auditing lines. [not auditing other Scientologists] Then, "You've got to see this, Jason. It's going to fucking key you out!" [release you from a series of bad experiences] I go in and I'm looking at all these people who are on OT VII. They're going nuts with the sec-checks too. I'm like, "This is fucking crazy!" These people are supposed to be home-auditing. Then they have to go to Flag every six months and they're there for six fucking weeks. What are you, crazy? They're coming home, [fidgeting] "Ungh ungh, I had a really good six-month check." I said, [7:00] "It's just as clear as day. I tell you this is not fucking standard. Scientology's not supposed to make you worse. I saw it. I've been experiencing it and watching it!" So now they come out and this is two, three years. This little "mistake" probably made the church about 500 million dollars. Then about 500 million dollars later COB gives a fucking briefing on the Freewinds. What they show me is, "Arbitraries cancelled!" "It's an arbitrary," is what they say. So in other words all this sec-checking was an arbitrary, and through his research and looking into things and reading, checking all of LRH's notes, they realized they made a mistake. So now I don't have to do this sec-check. "Aren't you happy, Jason?" All these people on VII, like a bunch of fucking idiots, were like, "Arbitraries are cancelled! I can just go on and it will save me about fifty grand a year," and all this shit, and it's like, "Wow!" I'm like, "You think that's supposed to make me fucking happy? [8:00] I feel like you should have a fucking apology." I said, "If I were COB and I made that mistake I wouldn't go, 'Arbitraries cancelled!' I would say, "I made a fucking mistake. I am sorry." I'd make up the fucking damage. I'd pay. "My fucking mistake made me 500 fucking million dollars," and you don't fucking even say you're sorry? You say, "Guess what?" This is what the fucking thing does. It just plays the same game over and over again. We're going now to the Congresses. Toward the end of this 8 years, I'm off auditing. I finished the OT V finally. I just said, "I don't want any more of this shit." Nobody even said, "Take OT VII," because apparently I'm in the middle of four different fucking actions and nobody knows what to do. I'm in the middle of fucking L10. I can tell you about L10. It's a story in itself. L10 is a story. Just know that they use my fucking wins on the Ls, [9:00] and the Ls are what fucked me up in Scientology. So I go and I say "Fuck it. OK, I'll buy these Congresses. It's only like a couple thousand of bucks and I've got something to do and I'll get in shape. I'll listen to a congress and go for a walk." So I was one of the first people to finish the Congresses. I get up early. I get up at 5. I'd just get up, and I'd take the dog, and I'd go. I'd listen to three tapes and walk for an hour or two, and do the thing. So I got through the Congresses. The Congresses are part of what got me out of Scientology, because if you listen to those fucking Congresses, it goes like this: "Hi everybody, I'm LRH. I'm very happy you're here. Listen, I've got great fucking news. We've got Clear handled, and you do this thing, and it's this new technology, and here's the realization, and this is foolproof, and this is it. That's it. Now [10:00] welcome to 1964." Apparently the fucking thing didn't work. Dianetics didn't work, even though nobody ever said it didn't, but they were always trying to perfect Clear. Then the next congress. There were what, 20, 30 of these fucking congresses, maybe about 200 hours or some shit? Every fucking congress is, "I got it this time! Now we've got Clear handled! We've finally got clear!" This is going on over, I'm listening from 1964 to 1970. They still haven't fucking handled Clear, but they're selling you Clear! I said, "What the fuck? That's exactly what they're doing to me now!" I said, "What the fuck!" I went back in. I'm talking to Dave Petit, who is head of CC [Celebrity Centre] and who now is handling my case personally. Personally! He's in my house. He's at my fucking thing. We're taking walks. I almost killed him once. I fucking took him by the tie and I was grounding him. "Jason, please don't hit me!" [11:00] I actually secretly recorded it. It's funny. I have it on audio tape. He didn't want me to leave. "Please don't leave! Please don't leave!" I said, "Motherfucker, get out of the way or I will fucking kill you,". He wouldn't get out of the way, so I took him by the tie and put him down on the floor and I walked out, because it'll get you pissed. That's how mad I was. My mind was fucked up. It's one thing to feel unhappy. I walked into Scientology, remember, and I was on top of the thing. It must have been false, though. I was fucking happy. I'm fucking unhappy and they're making me pay to get fucked up. They're telling me what's wrong with me. That's another fucking thing. They won't tell you what the next thing is. "Believe me, it's good." You've got to fucking buy the thing for 50 Gs a pop or whatever, and it's wrong! "Oops, made a mistake, but we're going to do this now." Are you fucking crazy? Do you see how stupid I was? [12:00] It's like, "Oh my god!" and that's the game. I'm telling you, that's the game. At any rate the Congresses helped me out because I said, "What the fuck?" I never met LRH and I figured he was good. I figured Scientology works. It's just that these fucking mortals can't fucking give me Scientology. If Scientology works a hundred percent of the time, this ain't fucking working so I'm not getting Scientology. That's what I said to them. That's what I said. "You guys should give me the fucking money." It's one thing to make a fucking mistake, but let's say the last fucking six hundred grand was a fucking mistake. I feel like I've got a case because if Scientology works and they agreed this didn't work, I bought Scientology. Then you should give me my fucking money back. There's nothing to indicate that they have any fucking hope for my "case" now. I was trying to be nice. For six, eight months I said, "Why don't we just let me go? Just let me go. Just let me go. I think it's better. [13:00] You don't want to get into a whole fucking thing with me." They would. They had to keep changing terminals, and I'm talking about big fucking terminals. I would put doubt in their universe, because you can't argue with my story. When you saw what happened to me, and you're a trained auditor, and you look in my fucking folder, they fucked me up! I'm talking about insane! I'm like, [tense] "huhhh, hunhh," I've never been like that in my life. I walked out. I was like, "Hey, hi." I was never shy. I was never introverted. I'm sitting there like, [fuming] "hff, hff." I'm fucked up now! They really fucked me the fuck up. "Yeah, well, the way out's the way through." There's no reason to get in that room. Maybe that was the hidden deep shit. I'm looking at my kid. He's five years old. He's a happy fucking guy. He's not fucked up yet. He might get fucked up later. [14:00] MB: Are you sure you were fucked up? Maybe you were just PTS to an SP. JB: Well, that's what I'm saying. That's the other thing. I had this big fucking car accident in the middle of OT V. I nearly died. I was in a coma for three and a half weeks. Everybody thought I was going to die, so of course we've got to find my PTS terminal. That happened eight and a half years ago. I got out of Scientology a year ago. In the last seven and a half years in Scientology, still no fucking PTS item until I finally said, "It's you guys!" They couldn't deny it. I said, "Look at the data!" "Are you sure it's not that person? He's gay," somebody told me. That's now naive some of these people are. What do you call it? An RTC terminal, which is the gold standard of technical perfection. They think, "That's a homosexual." [15:00] They believe that homosexuals are all 1.1. MB: They still believe that. JB: There's some that do. I never believed that. I read that. I interpreted it differently, but it was something where I had to do some mental gymnastics in order to make work. MB: Well, that's what Hubbard wrote though, that they were 1.1. JB: Well, it's debatable. I know that he said "your homosexuals" when he's saying the 1.1. I don't know if it's all homosexuals or homosexuality. MB: Yet the church says that they've changed it. JB: The church said they changed that? MB: The church just said that they no longer think negatively about homosexuals. JB: Well, gosh. I never heard the word "faggot" more than when I hang around people at Gold, [Gold Base, Scientology's international headquarters] to the point where I said "I don't like it. [16:00] My brother's gay and he sure ain't one-one. I've got great friends of mine that are gay. You're telling me Leonardo da Vinci is one-one? I don't think so. If he's covertly hostile he's got so much that he did that was good that as much hostility as he may have exuded, I think he made up for it." You see? MB: Yeah. JB: I don't buy it. I never bought it, again, in my universe, when I was in it. Part of the thing when you're in it is, LRH is this super-duper guy. You make him into your own super-duper guy, I suppose, probably. MB: But you're looking at the current management, David Miscavige, COB, and you're thinking, "Well, is he in it for the money?" [17:00] What is your view of L. Ron Hubbard now? JB: Again, I don't have all the data. I read some of the books that are out that are critical, "Bare-Faced Messiah," "Madman or Magician," whatever it was. MB: "Madman or Messiah"? JB: Right, that one, and-- MB: "A Piece of Blue Sky"? JB: "A Piece of Blue Sky." There's stories. I don't know if all that's true, but it's consistent. One of the ways for me that I can detect whether something is true or false is for inconsistencies. You say the guy wore blue shoes and here's a picture of him in red shoes. I never saw anything inconsistent, but I didn't see it with my own eyes, [18:00] The person seems reliable, but again here I am. I'm just pulling out of this thing. I thought LRH was reliable, and I don't. I don't think so now. I look at the whole death and the death certificate and all this stuff. It's hard to argue with, and his kids. My wife is an interesting person to talk to as well because she's Class IV OT V. She's one of those people. She could probably do heroin for a year and then just say, "You know what? it's making me too skinny," and put it down. Everybody loved her a whole lot. She was "Jason Beghe's wife" to some degree over there, but she's a remarkable person in her own right. [19:00] One of the ways is that she's one of those people you just can't brainwash. When she got out it was like, "That's it." She didn't talk about it. I said, "You know honey, I'm thinking about doing this thing." I think she was like, "OK. Fine. Whatever," flipped the burger, "Yeah." She had always pointed out things that were inconsistent also. MB: Like what? JB: Well, all these fucking OTs that aren't OT. Like, "That's a fucking OT?" MB: What's an OT supposed to be? JB: Well, somebody who's at least able. Somebody who can walk and chew gum. There's people that are OT that are some of the most incompetent stupid people. [20:00] My definition of stupid doesn't have anything to do with data or education. I'm talking about people that put their hand on the stove and go, "Hey! Hey! Hey! My hand's hot! My hand is hot!" I'm talking about that kind of stupid. Unreal, unreal. "What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you?" There's some real dopes. They have money, and they're successful and they feel good about themselves because they're on VII. "Well, I'm on VII now. It's fucking great. I've got to tell you, you've got to get on VII. Yeah." It's that kind of thing. It gives them a thing, and you look at them. Scientologists know it. I've talked to Vic Venturena, and I said, "What the fuck? What is that? [21:00] What is that?" These people, I might have had an issue with them and they'll write me up. They'll bring me to ethics. I've got to handle this thing. In the thing they wrote up, I'd say, "What do you want me to say? It's true, I guess." They go, "Well, you know." I'm not going to say the name. You know who he is. I'd go, "Yeah." "OK. We just had to bring it in because it's written up. Do you want to write anything?" "I don't give a fuck, put it in the folder." That was some of the stuff that she would just really go nutty on. Even me, here I was. I told you. The further I went up the fucking Bridge, the more casey I became. I met this girl. She could see the more I do this shit, it wasn't handling dick. JUMPING OFF THE BRIDGE [0:00] MB: Once you left, how did you leave? JB: They wouldn't let me leave. They just kept saying, "No, no, no, no," so I said, "Okay, give me my money back." What I had was money on account. Per their policy, if you asked for your money, that was it. MB: And they did give it back? JB: They gave my wife's money back. They offered to give me my money back. They want me to sign a piece of paper that says that I have no further claim against them. I told them I can't do that, because I feel I do. I don't have the time or the money to get into a legal battle. I'd say a million dollars they probably owe me, conservatively. In this country you can do pain and suffering. Maybe I could get a couple of extra bucks. MB: It's tough to litigate [1:00] Scientology. JB: Yeah, but I'm not going to sign some paper that says I don't. I just couldn't. It's just my own integrity. I couldn't say that. MB: What's happened since you left Scientology? I was talking to your wife a little bit earlier. She was talking about how the friends cut off from her, those who are still in Scientology. JB: Yeah, well, you know. Jesus. I've got a little son, too, and he was in a little Scientology school. He was four at the time. No school was started. We moved. We were in the process of moving. [2:00] We moved to this big property out here. It's a big different thing and it's a long way away. They kicked him out of school. MB: It was a Scientology school. JB: Yeah. They kicked him out. He had nothing to do, and it fucked him up. "Why can't I see my friends?" That was just all his friends. This was a time where Mom and Dad were really busy, I'm working. We've got a little tiny infant at the time. We're moving to an enormous thing, plus this whole place you're in was under construction. There was a period when we were in one of those Airstream [trailer] type of things, and nothing for him to do. Our friends? I knew. I could see I was pulling away. [3:00] I'm kind of an anti-social personality anyway, so I don't really hang around people. I remember there's a girl, a wonderful girl, Kelly Daniels. Terrific chick. She found out. Some ethics person told her, and she just was inconsolable. I know there are a lot of broken hearts on the other side, and now there's not. I saw some fucking kid that I hardly know. I do voice-overs too, so I went to a voice-over. There was some kid from Scientology. Usually, if I'd see him at a voice-over, he'd be like "Hey, Jason!" and he went [avoiding eye contact]. [laughs] I was just like, "You fucking punk." That's all I said to him. [4:00] You see that that's it in a nutshell. Both of them are a lie: the "Jason!" because we're Scientologists, and the [avoiding eye contact] because you're out. When you look at the thing, the data shows. Tory's husband left her. These people, their families, there's the proof. There's the proof. You're incapable of being a good friend if you're a Scientologist, because you're a Scientologist. Jason Beghe the Scientologist is willing to lose David. He's willing to sacrifice certainly the quality of my relationship with Mom and Dad and brothers and sisters, and God knows who else that I could have made friends with that weren't Scientologists. Maybe they just didn't understand, or whatever. [5:00] The most important thing in my life, for me, again going back to who I was as a kid, was a guy that was interested in people. I wasn't judging people. I was just willing to be them. Maybe that's why I became an actor. I grew up in New York. This is people, people, people. Every day growing up I would meet somebody. You're on the subway. Now people go to the Home Depot with me. We'd go and hang and talk and do our thing. That's who I am. To some degree you're not able to communicate because you've got a bubble around youself. It's this thing. There's another way. Part of the thing that made it a little bit easier for me to get out of Scientology than other people, was that I would always look at the religion side. Again, I was always interested in religion, and when they get exclusive [6:00] you've got to wonder. I don't have anything against anybody's religion. It's fine, but "The evangelicals are the only ones going to heaven," "The Muslims are the only ones going to Allah," or whatever, and "The Scientologists are the only people who know." Well, I don't think so. It doesn't make sense to me. There's an interesting story, one of the things that took the biggest hits on religion in this century. It fucked up a lot of people. World War I was a vicious, awful war, different than others, with gasses and mustard gas. It was terrible. People were slaughtered and it fucked up a lot of the Germans and the Americans when they go and they would see their bodies. They saw that they had the same Bible. They said, "Whoa, I thought God was on my side." It's the same, apparently, [7:00] when things are bringing people further away from others, and distancing them, and Scientology to the degree that I'm a different species. "You're a wog. I'm a Homo novis, and I'm a Homo novis enough to be loving of you." That's pretty bad. Then you look at that and radical Islam, it's not that different. MB: Yet Scientology says that they're not exclusive, that you can certainly be any other religion and be a Scientologist. JB: Well, let me tell you something. I talked to many, many, many terminals about this after a certain point, when I'm down on the fucking bottom, after going through this. I never complained about money. I'm not rich, but I never complained about it. You never had to fucking beg me for a fucking thing. I would [8:00] go in and throw down. When I was ready to do it I'd say, "Let's go." It wasn't ever, I wasn't ready because I didn't have the bread. It was, I wanted to be ready because if I'm going to fucking do this thing, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be behind it. That's where I was at as a Scientologist. I told those fucking people, because they're always talking about it. You know what they're doing? Do you know why they need all this money? Do you know what their real goal is? It's to clear the planet. It's to clear the planet. You know what the good news is? We only have to clear about three quarters of it. Just due to the fact of our being so theta, the other quarter will just clear instantly and the SPs will crumble. You saw the little wicked witch when she got water thrown on her? That's what will happen to the fucking SPs, "Eeeh." After a while you start feeling like, "Hey, man. This ain't a little mistake. That cost me fifty Gs." You start doing that a [9:00] couple of thousand fucking times. You say, "Hey, I'm getting pissed. That's a lot of money!" You start getting into that. They ain't talking about all this. I said, "Where's the money going?" Nobody ever fucking gives you an answer. "we're trying to clear the planet?" I said, "Babies, I want to tell you something. I've got news for you. There's no fucking way. You can't fucking clear Beverly Hills with these prices. There's no fucking way. It's physically impossible." Like they say, [Barack] Obama, [Hillary] Clinton can't reach the number. There's no way! There's not enough money. It can't be done. So that's a lie. They're not trying to clear any fucking planet. If they are, they're going to have to bring the fucking money. The prices will have to go so fucking down, I said, "I'll wait, then. I'll wait, I'll do it next lifetime when it's 250 bucks to go Clear, because I can wait another forty years, and it'll save me a million bucks, and I'd rather my fucking kid go to private school. [10:00] So fuck it." Celebrity Centred [0:00] MB: How are celebrities treated inside Scientology? JB: All I know is how I was treated and my peers. That's who I hung out with. I do know that it's a lot different. Actually, I do. This was another question for me. Here I was. I had Ray Mithoff, who's the top auditor on the planet, the Senior C/S [case supervisor] International. I had RTC technicians, whatever, people in LA. I had my own auditor, the C/S, the senior C/S. Then they would all go over my folder. Then they'd send it to Richard Reeves at Flag, who's the senior C/S at Flag. He'd go over the folder. Do you know how long it took me to get a fucking C/S? I'd do a thing and I'd make an origination like, "I'm not sure I like this." [1:00] My next session would be about a month later, because they couldn't fucking handle, because there were so many "vias" on the comm line. How was I handled? I was handled with the best attention ever. I said, "Do you know something? If this is the best of the best...." That's what I was saying to them at the end. I said, "How the fuck?" That's another thing I was saying about clearing the planet. "You are the best motherfuckers in the world and you admitted you fucked the shit out of me, what happens to poor schmoe at Orange County Org when you're first saying, 'You just need ethics!' Or some fuckin' thing." He's still stuck in some ethics cycle going "[unintelligible]" and it's because they fucked him up! They said, "No, you need more sec-checking!" and he can't afford it, or some fucking thing. It's not even the right fucking thing! These guys don't know what they're doing! They're fucking hoping! They're hoping! The fucking crime of the bitch is they're saying, "Aha! We're going to work [2:00] this out, and I'm going to put in a little oregano," and the other guy says, "Too much salt," and fucking, "Here's your folder, and of course we've got it C/S'd and ready to go." I'd be like, "This fucking sucks! It's a wrong fucking item!" Then your needle's floating. [on the e-meter, and the auditor says:] "I would like to indicate that it is a wrong item." It'd go right back to the motherfuckers for another month. Meanwhile, I've already bought a hundred thousand dollars worth of "auditing" and it's more going through this thing! Then it's just talking about some stupid fucking overts [crimes] because I haven't had a session. "Well, I masturbated." "Who the fuck cares?" I said. "It's not like I'm fucking killing people or beating my children or something." You know what I'd do? "Um, internet porn and, uh, I don't know. You know, uh, I was, I blew my stack. I got mad at work and...." You've got nothing to fucking say! This is it! That'll fucking eat the whole cocksucking [session]. it's just unbelievable! [3:00] MB: Celebrities are used heavily for recruiting, and they recruit young actors coming to town. I see every weekend in Backstage West, now it's up to 5 or 6 ads for different workshops they do. Are you familiar with that at all? Do you know anything at all about it? JB: Yeah, yeah. I gave one. Yeah, they got me to do one once. Yeah, people got interested and they signed up for courses. They use people to do that. I suppose they're targeting actors. That's what I've understood. It's good public relations for them, I suppose. If somebody hits big, it's thanks to Scientology. I know a lot of people who do them. At first they were very reticent to do some of the things, say some of the things that they're [4:00] pressured to do. In other words, Scientology, and that you use the ethics conditions all the time in your career, and all these kind of things. After they've done a couple of them, they even start to believe it. It's very hard. You have to look. These are decent, good people. I don't want to say so many alarming things. How do people get involved in these destructive relationships, just between two people? There's a lot of people that get knocked around and come back.I doubt the person knocked them around on the first date. It's sad. Just looking at those celebrities, you sell a little piece of your soul [5:00] when you tell that lie, but you've got it all justified that, "Well, it's good people, and it's for the church. I'm helping the group," and da da da. You've got a thing, but I'm telling you that you're full of it a little bit. You know that if you really look at it, it's OK. In any other universe, you know if that came up in session it would be an overt, but not there, because you're doing it. They've got the whole thing justified, and this whole hard sell and all this thing, what they do to our truth. Shit, actors is one thing. What about the little children they get into the Sea Organisation? Billion year contracts. MB: What's your reaction to the Sea Org and the way that the Sea Org members are treated as opposed to the celebrity clientele? Are you aware of some of the things that happen to Sea Org members? JB: Again, I've heard things and they seem quite plausible. I have [6:00] never seen anybody being abused. I've seen people kind of screamed at, but I've never seen that kind of abuse. To me, let's say you hear my story. I've got out and I've got some sad tales. Maybe I got ripped off for a good chunk of money and this, that and the other thing. If you look at that as compared to somebody who joins the Sea Org, it's not even comparable. Can you imagine what it would be like to have a person at your beck and call and complete disposal? Your slave who not only was a slave [7:00] by force, but you've got them by the mind! Not the balls, you've got them by the mind! They're in love with you, devoted to you, to do whatever you want for their entire lifetime! You can just get them so they're working. A hundred hours probably is what the average Sea Org person works a week. I'd say about 80 to 100 hours a week. What's the minimum wage on that? It's not even minimum wage shit! They build the buildings. They do everything, high tech stuff. It's worth at least $75,000 a year. So that's it! Then you get that for 50 years, 40 years, because they get them when they're teenagers! Then they've also hired a dentist who takes care of their teeth. They've also hired all these kind of things as part of their organization. What is [8:00] that? That's just millions and millions of dollars worth of free labor. Not only that, plus your whole life! What do they get in exchange? They believe that they're saving this sector of the galaxy, and that's enough for them. They're the few people that have the ethical fortitude to make that kind of a commitment. MB: What's your reaction to the RPF? JB: Those are the rules of the game. To me, what it is, is more of a way to control. People end up there if they're, I would think, to some degree they feel, getting out of control. So what do you do? You put more control on them until you've got them back in control. [9:00] Whether that's physical abuse or mental abuse or both, it's what it is. MB: When you were in, did you know the ins and outs of RPF, where families would be split up and people couldn't communicate for months or even years? JB: No. They don't talk about that much. As I got older, when I was in a little bit longer and I spent more time at the upper organizations like Gold I would hear about things like that. They try to keep that stuff away from everybody, especially celebrities. The company line is that the Sea Org is made up of OTs. It's a group of OTs. For these people to fail means that OTs are failing. [10:00] It's like a one-shot Clear, joining the Sea Organisation. You have the EPF, which is the precursor, where you get ready. When you're finally posted in the Sea Org, the end phenomenon of the EPF-- which is called the "Estates Project Force," which is where you run around and do a lot of physical labour and take a couple of courses-- is supposed to be an OT, which is interesting to me. I've many times blown my stack when I had to get in touch with somebody at Flag. I had to call the President. Of course they've got a new person answering the telephone at Flag. Of course Scientology touts itself as the cutting edge in communication, whereas they have somebody answering the fucking phone who does not speak English. However, they are an OT. They happen to be an OT from Poland who is now [11:00] 14 years old and is now the main receptionist for an international fucking hotel. You call and you say, "What the fuck is wrong with this person?" Well, "They're posted and they should be." You've got to get that job done! If their stats are down, I'm sure they're back on the RPF if they haven't learned to speak English quickly enough. That's not an exaggeration. Insanity. MB: So you didn't know that much about what's going on in the RPF, things like that? JB: No. I learned some things online. MB: How are you as public kept away from the entheta [bad influence] that's going on in the real world? I mean, if there's some really negative story about Scientology in the paper or on TV, are you aware of that? JB: It's a funny thing. I remember my wife had seen Ted Koppel interview David [12:00] Miscavige. She thought that he kind of fucked up, certainly wasn't very OT. She talked to Susan Watson, who's the president of CC. It's almost like gaslighting somebody. Do you know that expression? Make them seem like, "Are you crazy?" "Oh! Well, you know, he was just doing a tone scale drill, because you know what that's got," to just not-is [negate] the thing. I think it's called dead agenting. It was an interesting thing. I had a similar experience just seeing Tom Cruise acting a little bit in a way that could distress a lot of people. They make it into, "Well, this is the greatest. Yeah! No, this is good! People just can't handle his level of enthusiasm!" [13:00] "OK..." That's the company line and you go, "OK ..." MB: Even now, when it would really seem that Tom Cruise paid and there's global attention to this, and they're trying to spin it as a positive that "all these people are coming to our side and learning about Scientology and joining," whereas the rest of the world is thinking "Tom Cruise is nuts!" JB: Yeah. That's the thing, though. In their own little world it makes sense. The funny thing is, that is a Scientologist talking to Scientologists. I've done these kind of videos. That's Tom Cruise, who's sitting there being interviewed, knowing that his audience is people in the audience of an event that's going to be made up completely of Scientologists. His job is [14:00] to get some fire under their asses so they can jump out and start behaving more like him. That's basically what it is. In their universe, you could show that. I think that's an unedited tape, but that's basically him! I've been around the guy. I twinned on him in some courses. Shit, I was getting auditing from Marty Rathbun. We were on turn-about for a month and a half. Tom would go in, then I'd go in. Tom would go in and I'd go in. I spent a little bit of time with him. and that's him! He's a very fucking focused guy. That's what I see, This guy is not a namby-pamby pantywaist. He's a totally dedicated person. I can't call him a friend or know him even, but I can tell you that [15:00] that's who he is. If it seems crazy, that's interesting. That seems like the ideal to most Scientologists. That's an interesting comment. That's what it is, because they showed that as, "Come on, babies, get off your asses! Don't you want to be like Tom?" It's interesting that the rest of the world, who are not caught up in that Truman Show, see it as, "Whoa, what's wrong with this guy?" It's crazy. MB: It looks very much to an outsider as though your reality is stripped away and it's replaced with Scientology's reality. JB: That's what I saw. That's what I perceived. The other dangerous thing, I've watched a little of that Tom Cruise interview and I'd seen it before then. I went to that event. [16:00] That was an IAS event from where he won the Freedom Medal. There's some part in there where he says, "You know, as a Scientologist, you can't pass that accident, because you know you're the only person that can do something about it!" He does know that. To me, that's part of what I'm finding is destructive in terms of a religion that pulls people apart, whereas it seems like, "Well, no. He's really helping people." So you could say that, but he's also putting himself above it. He's a Homo novis. He's somewhat condescending. He knows he's going to heaven. [17:00] I find that very worrisome. It really is. I don't think it bodes well for the planetary community when you have people sectifying into these groups that are the only way out. It starts to look crazy. That's, I think, where war comes from. MB: You mentioned having done some of those videos like Cruise. You've done a lot of Scientology... JB: Oh, shit! Man, let me tell you something. The main recruiting film for the Sea Organization, I spent well over a year doing that up at Gold with David Miscavige, and one other guy on the final day, because we had to finish it for Sea Org Day. If you [18:00] ever get recruited to join the Sea Org, that'll be me talking, unless they hear this. Maybe they'll take me off. "We live in a world gone mad. Where pain and strife create war and human suffering. A world rife with drugs." It starts like that. It's very serious. It's all about the Sea Organization, how it was formed and blah, blah, blah. Apparently, it's working. That's what I've heard. They told me, but their stats never go down. Then the last thing I did before I left, I don't know what the hell they were calling it, but they had this big public push. They were going to put these videos in every org. When new public walk in, they can learn "What is CCHR? What is the Volunteer Ministers?" [19:00] I must have done 10 or 12 of these things. That's my voice too. Then of course, the technology of Scientology is learning how to clear people and bring them to higher states of spiritual freedom. That takes a lot of learning. You've got to go to course. Part of the course is technical films where they tell the story. They're all written by L. Ron Hubbard. Some were even directed by him, but I'm in plenty of them. MB: So they'll have to purge you now? JB: I don't know if they'll purge me. There was a girl who left and they kept her. They re-did the film finally. There's some of them that it'll take a while to re-do. They take forever to make a film [20:00] anyway. Shit, I did a little half-hour film for them. It took months. It took months. Living Up to a Billion Year Contract The Sea Org [0:00] JB: My experience personally, and what I've observed for myself is that Scientology is destructive and a ripoff, and that it's very, very dangerous for your spiritual, psychological, mental, emotional health and evolution. I think it stunts your evolution. Joining the Sea Org is the greatest commitment to that. It requires the greatest amount of commitment from that individual. There's a different standard for a new public, or a Scientology public, an OT public. Then above that is a Sea Org member. What's required and expected is far beyond, the degree to which you have to be completely devoted. Again, to me, from my perception, [1:00] the more devoted you are the more brainwashed you are. The less you are yourself, the more you are just a Scientologist. When I was saying earlier, you become Jason Beghe the Scientologist, Jason Beghe the Sea Org member would be further gone than Jason Beghe the Scientologist. I hear about these hardcore top execs that are now, heavy-duty in the Sea Org 25 years, made it to the top, leaving, I would imagine that decompression for them could be in danger of the bends. That's some heavy shit, to get that far in. To me right now, I'm just getting an inkling. One of [2:00] the big, big concepts in Scientology is overts, which are the sins that you've committed. These are naughty things you've done. These are your peccadillos. These are your big, big awful secrets that you would never tell anybody. These are some mistakes you've made. They can all add up to overts. I'm beginning to get a concept. Maybe part of the reason why I'm doing this is to try and make up the damage for some of the people I've influenced getting into Scientology, because I feel bad. I feel that was bad, that maybe somebody would look to me and say, "Hey, he's cool!" or, "He's no fool," whatever the hell they say. Shit, that makes me feel bad. That Sea Org slideshow, shit, COB [3:00] told me that it got a whole bunch of people into the Sea Org. It's working like gangbusters. You ask me if I fully really faced that without flinching. It would be a tough pill to swallow. That's some heavy shit. If I really look at that, that's taking people's lives away. That's enslaving somebody's mind. When I was talking about being on the levels of ethics where somebody doesn't even know they're on ethics, shit baby, we're talking about people who don't even know they're enslaved. That's a hard fucking thing to confront. Shit, they can create their own reality where they will show up when they're 21 next lifetime and come back. That's fucking feasible. I'm talking about brainwashed. I don't know how [4:00] far it goes, but it ain't a joke. If Scientology is real, then something's fucked up, because it ain't delivering what it's promised. That's for god-damn sure. It says it's delivered what it's promised. Where's the fucking Clear? You're talking about OTs. Let me meet a motherfucking Clear. I would like to meet a fucking Clear. I'm Clear. I'm declared Clear as a fucking bell. I went Clear twice, as a matter of fact. If you pull out a fucking copy of Dianetics, let's hear the definition of Clear. Then they change it a little bit more and say, "no longer has his own reactive mind," "his own," so they can sell the OT levels. See, now it ain't a joke for me when you start talking about this. This is the bad stuff. [5:00] From my own experience and what I've seen, I think the further up you go up the Bridge the worse you get. That's what I see. Some people are "happier" but who's happy? I submit to you that it's not them anymore. I know people that are troubled to death. They've just finished OT VIII and they have migraines. Migraines? A fucking Clear doesn't have migraines. This is a fucking OT VIII for God's sakes. Migraines? "Migraines is an engram that you can handle in"-- come on! They're still fucking gung-ho and head OT ambassadors and all this shit and running around trying to do the job of the OT VIIIs who are really the powerhouses. So they believe that. They're happy, because "I'm doing something to save the planet." [6:00] They're running around doing this stuff, but it's just like that theta trap. It's just one guy. He's stuck in a theta trap and he's unhappy. Another guy's stuck in it and he's happy, because he's convinced himself. He's, [delirious] "Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!" It's awful. What's worse? I'd rather be depressed than that. Ai yi yi! It's sad. MB: So what would you say to people who are still in? JB: Somebody who's still in? Listen, you've got to make your own move, but it's like this. Hopefully this will communicate. Like I said before, I used to smoke. I had a kid. I had my little son. I never smoked in front of my son, but kids are smart and he'd find a cigarette and he'd be going like this: [mimes lighting a cigarette]. He couldn't even [7:00] walk and be, [mimes lighting a cigarette]. I said, "I've got to fucking quit." I couldn't quit. I'd tried to quit a whole bunch of times. I found this thing called "The Easy Way to Stop Smoking." It worked for me, and it was easy. It was very easy. Part of the whole smoking thing, according to this thing that worked for me, is that it's not as bad as you think it is. So for somebody who's in, as far gone as you are as you go up, it's the difference between waking up and being asleep. It's the difference between waking up and being asleep. Sometimes when you're asleep you can still hear the shit that's going around, because you're only half-asleep. You're not that fucking brainwashed. I'm here to tell you that. This is what I say: "Wake up." You can hear it. [8:00] [snaps fingers] There was actually a little process that LRH ran. Some processes are good, and he used to run it. He said sometimes you can actually cure someone of insanity, which is what we're talking about. The command is in tone 40, which means without any possibility of this communication not arriving and making the effect intended. Say it to the the insane person who's "argh argh argh." I'm talking about a fucking David Berkowitz. Here's the only command: "Come up to present time." Come up to present time, because you're not there, and guess what, you are there. [snap] "Come on!" [snap] "Hello!" [snap] "Right now|" [snap] "There you are! There you are." That's what I say to that person, "There you are. That guy. That guy. That guy right there, not what you're thinking. [9:00] Fuck what you're thinking! Hello, right there! There it is," [beckons] [snap] It's a no-brainer. It's not that hard. It really isn't. I got out. It was a slow process. Here's what I'll tell you. This is what I fucking know. I realize, when you're doubting, you already know! You're stuck in a world of data. You're looking for data to make it so you can overweigh this data. Guess what? It's not about data. It's about you, which is exactly what Scientology says. There's the irony. It's about you. It's not about any fucking data. There's nothing to figure out because you already know. You already know. Here's just a thing if you haven't wondered [10:00] just a little bit. All these claims, how about a little bit of fucking evidence? How about some fucking evidence? I'm not talking about, "Prove to me there's God." It's just some pretty fucking sweeping things like, "Well. you have to take responsibility for salvaging beings" This whole Xeno [sic] thing is insane. The people believe it. Why? because LRH said it, just like I was talking about the psychs. There's no fucking evidence. It's just chatter about nothing. There's no fucking evidence. They call it Scientology, like it's got some fucking hypothesis and some fucking if-then, and here's the proof, and this is it, and there it is. That's the other thing that I realized listening to those fucking congresses. This motherfucker... Listen, if you're doing some science, you've got to have a bunch of fucking people and you test the fucking thing. What'd he do it on, three fucking [11:00] of his friends? "Wait, that's it! You're Clear now! OK, let's have a congress, because it worked! You changed the wording from, 'Come up to present TIME,' to, 'COME up to present TIME.' That's a congress! It worked on Joe, so yeah, go try that!" They go fucking have these audit [unintelligible]. It's fucking insane! I think he believed it some of the time. MB: So what would you say to current management? JB: I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it, the ones who are the lower level people that I know, and in the Sea Org, like Dave Petit. I could talk to Dave right now. [addressing camera] Dave, you've got to justify it. You fucking know. I know that you know. [12:00] Either you're a liar and you're really evil and just want to get up on top and somehow win the thing, which I doubt, but it's possible, or the other side of it: you know. It's not just my fucking story. You know that too, so you know. You get so justified in there, and you get into a group. I would imagine that they have their own little group. In my opinion, just to use some more of that nomenclature from Scientology, another way to say is that the further up the Bridge you get, and the further up the Sea Org you get, the more PTS you get. Then you think that PTS is, "Oh, I'm feeling shitty," or, "I've got a cold," or, "I broke my leg." You think that's what it is. [13:00] That's a level of PTSness where you're at least aware something's wrong. When you're sitting there and you're so fucking PTS that you think you're fucking saving this sector of the fucking galaxy, what can you say? Hopefully for your own sake, you're just a plain old SP and you want money and power, if you actually believe that shit. You can wake up just like that. If you really believe that, then you're so far gone. That's gone! That's gone, and I don't believe anybody's that gone. It's like a guy who has a five hundred dollar a day habit. He started with one toke or whatever the fuck it is. You start eating more and more of this shit to the point where you believe. You've got all these things. I know if you're that far up in the fucking [14:00] exec management level, you've committed so many fucking overts and justified so many evil fucking deeds. You know it. A blind man could see it. I don't even have to know what it is. I can tell. That's why I'm so happy Mike Rinder got out. He was the worst piece of PR you guys had, because I would look at that guy and you could just tell that he was bad. He had done a lot of bad things. I just saw it. You could tell. They put him on to defend Scientology? You put the Dalai Lama on. You look at him and you say, "There's this sweet guy. I don't know what Buddhism is," but you can tell that's good. Deepak Chopra: "OK, he wants a couple of bucks, but he's trying to help people." This is a guy who's like, [glaring] "engh." He's dark and he's like, "ugh," and this fucking thing. This is what you would cast as a villain in some cheap fucking B movie. What are you, crazy? [15:00] Did you believe it? I'm sorry. He's out. I hope he's out. That's great, but that's what I saw. That's what I saw. Personally, I look at David Miscavige. That's my definition of one-one. He's good at it. To lie to people like that, to take money, to have no sense of responsibility when you rip people off for hundreds of millions of dollars, and then make them happy about it afterwards? You must be giggling! "Arbitraries cancelled!" Are you fucking kidding me? That's insane. Listen, the bottom line is, there's some beautiful fucking people in there, public and Sea Org. Some great people. Great, great, great people. You'd be lucky to have a friend like that, but that's the shame of it. [16:00] Maybe I've gone to far, because I do not want to hurt somebody's feelings. I don't want to shake somebody's universe. Right now I'm feeling a little, "uhh." There's the un-sugar-coated version, but it's got a little english on it. My intention is not to put english on any of this. I talk in a way that's full of english, but I don't have an agenda, I don't think. Like most people, I want to help. I suppose that's why I got into Scientology. That is, because I wanted to help. Right now I'm trying to help. I know that the Scientologists are trying to help. They're just trying to help. I think that's what most people are trying to do. They're just trying to help. [17:00] I don't want to be a terrorist about it and shake anybody up and upset anybody.I have the luxury of having gotten into Scientology and after having been in it, been out. That's a perspective that those people who are in and are not out do not have.
[End of transcript]
Today Tonight Australia reports on Greg Beghe speaking out about the cult of scientology after leaving (foxnews.com - April 15, 2008) English |
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Source
: http://blogs.villagevoice.com
This is a fascinatingly detailed interview. I found the section in which Beghe dealt with the sense of regret over having invested so much time, money and energy into what he now calls "a con" to be deeply moving. It also sheds light on how seemingly rational, well-meaning people can convince themselves and the authority figures in their lives (in this case "auditors" and other higher ups) that they have had great successes as a result of the things the authorities are selling them. They're too financially and emotionally invested in speaking the truth. It made me feel very very sad for people caught in this trap. Posted by: Anonymous at April 21, 2008 11:01 AM Fabulous stuff. Finally an intelligent person speaking about Scientology in an intelligent manner. At one point, he made an analogy to domestic abuse. The now deceased, ex-Scientologist and critic Robert Vaughn Young drew the same parallel. I can see how it starts the same--you start out on cloud nine with the most wonderful process/person in the world for you (the fit seems so perfect) and when one day you wake up and realize that it has all been a lie, the "information" can be impossible to assimilate. PTSD. Which is why so many people would rather stay in and go crazy rather than go through the pain of getting out. Jason is fortunate in that he has money and friends and family outside Scientology that he can go to, but many "in" -- especially those in the Sea Org have no money and no human relations outside Scientology. Much like the women of the FDLS compound. Posted by: Anonydog at April 21, 2008 12:02 PM Digg this Fucking Shit. The Scilons are burying it down & trying to hide it hard & fast. They are seriously shitting bricks this time. Posted by: Freddy at April 21, 2008 12:16 PM It so chilling and evil that the cult of scientology is trying to hide thing by yanking exposure (they don't care who they hurt). The criminal syndicates actions prove that this realy is a criminal business organization and NO church. Lawmakers need to know that the cover-up is over and this tax-exempt fraud must be stopped and criminals jailed. Posted by: JH at April 21, 2008 12:19 PM I'm having problems with the sound. Anybody else? It's not my sound card or codecs. Posted by: moronymous Thank you Jason Beghe and Mark Bunker for this fascinating, honest and at times disturbing insight into what life is really like inside the intensely secretive Church of Scientology. Hearing this story really helps me to understand how normal people get sucked in and exploited by the organization, even to the point where it is destroying their lives. I am glad that Jason got out with his mind intact and his family together. And thank you Tony Ortega for your great reports on this subject. Posted by: Steven God Bless Jason Beghe! What a mature man for sharing his experiences in Scientology. He's very intelligent. He is well versed in the Scientology lexicon and yet able to explain it to the no- member. He will become a champion in exposing every form of historical/societal control. My question is; "Do you think this will help Catholics cult members awaken also?" Posted by: RonR at April 21, 2008 12:38 PM I also cannot hear it all. IF you close your link and try it again in 5 minutes it should work. Having been in SCN until 2001 when I just stopped all communications I can atttest to alot of this being true. Posted by: Stefan at April 21, 2008 1:06 PM WIN. Posted by: win at April 21, 2008 1:12 PM thank god Free Speech is alive and well at the Village Voice. Posted by: ball at April 21, 2008 1:13 PM Apparently the Right sound channel is used for Jason and the Left for Mark (the interviewer). So if the sound is only coming from one speaker, that's why. Odd production decision, but he's the Emmy winner, not me. Posted by: AnonYmous at April 21, 2008 1:13 PM The weird sound editing is to make it easier for TV people to use this material, its better to get the mono sound if you will be mixing music or something over the top of this... Posted by: IceAnon at April 21, 2008 2:08 PM Kudos to Jason, Bunker at XenuTV.com, Tory (Magoo / Bezazian)Christman and Andreas at Xenu.net On one of first couple of tapes, Jason mentions his wife losing her close
friend, actress Keli Daniels, who took it very hard when the Beghe's left
Scientology. I new Keli Daniels and her husband Paul Landry years ago when I was member and you couldn't meet a nicer and more down to earth couple. I hope she's as level headed as she once was and will get up the courage to see this interview. Better yet, Keli Daniels, please call your friend Angie Beghe. Even LRH gives you permission when he wrote: "Never permit your affinity to be alloyed"
I hope she gets this message, calls Angie and and stops letting Scientology's policy dictate who her friends can be or should be. Thanks also to Tony Ortega and The Village Voice staff. Posted by: Mary at April 21, 2008 2:44 PM Wow. Jason is just so open, so vulnerable, so straightforward, and blunt. He is absolutely credible, and really helps us all understand the quicksand that traps people. It looks like a nice sandy place to lie down and meditate, improve yourself, but it's quicksand that sucks people in and won't let them go. It's just very, very sad, but inspiring that he's speaking out about those nagging inconsistencies that woke him up. I bet he'll validate lots and lots of others who have those same thoughts and realizations, and they will find the courage to leave. Take care, people. We're rooting for you. Posted by: Janie at April 21, 2008 3:08 PM Bravo! It's about time this evil cult is getting pulled into the light of day for all to see. Posted by: Jack at April 21, 2008 3:35 PM David Miscaviges' head just exploded. Really, his tiny, angry little head just exploded. Posted by: Artoo45 Great deal! Everyone should copy this video and plaster ScrewedTube (YouTube) with it. BTW, where is our pet Scifag OSA loser Terryeo? Won't they make him wear ashes, go without food and clean toilets with his tongue again for missing an opportunity like this? Posted by: Centurian
10 Scientology with its many front operations is a vicious cult and a ruthless multinational criminal enterprise. It has harmed many, many people. Why do you think it has been thrown out of (or is in the process of being thrown out of) so many countries? Civilized countries like Germany, Belgium, France, Italy, Greece, Norway, etc. It's a dirty and dangerous criminal racket that has made a few people fabulously wealthy, driven others to suicide (most recently the 20 year old daughter of a Norwegian MP, who killed herself a few hours after taking a Scientology "personality test," that she had "failed"), and driven others insane. It needs to be destroyed. Posted by: Janey at April 21, 2008 5:50 PM It's good to see that someone is willing to post these. It's a shame that youtube has completely buckled to special interest groups in terms of trying to silence Bunker, especially when you realize the obvious that more than half the material on youtube is copywrite infringing stuff. So good on you Village Voice, for stepping up to the plate and covering this, hopefully others in the media will follow suit. Posted by: h20 at April 21, 2008 6:00 PM That poor man. So very deceived. Scientology is the sickest thing I have ever seen. Right up there with Nazi-ism. If our government continues to do NOTHING about it.....I am leaving this country. Posted by: Judimus at April 21, 2008 6:06 PM i am in awe of his cojones Posted by: at April 21, 2008 7:44 PM A Scientologist responds: Even though Jason speaks the language and has undoubtedly rubbed shoulders with the top Scientologists, there are just a few inversions-inconsistencies within his own story: Why was Jason upset that his son was "kicked out" of a "Scientology school" AFTER he left Scientology? If he left Scientology because out of concern for his own sanity and well-being, what then about the well being of his 4 year old child? One would think that this parent would have removed his son from the perceived dangers prior to himself disconnecting. It's not logical. When Jason talks about Hubbard's disagreement with psychiatry and CCHR's
role, he says that no info. is ever provided about "psychiatry's side". However,
CCHR's primary function involves compiling enormous amounts of documented
information for the general public. Anyone, including Jason Beghe, can read the basic books of Scientology for extensive dissection about what makes people more able and what doesn't. The subjects of hypnosis and brainwashing are addressed at great length-- as well as how to reverse the effects of such practices. Check the CCHR website or even yet, as an alternative, consult the works of Dr. Thomas Szasz (a non-Scientologist) instead. How could an NYC born & raised, street savvy, no-BS, practical minded guy like Beghe spend so many years in Scientology before finally realizing it was making him worse off? In all that time, through all those levels, did he NEVER experience a win or a gain? And now everyone, Scientologist or not, is just supposed to believe his rant? How masochistic is that? How victim is that? Mr. Integrity-- NOT. I know that he attempts to address his experience and the years, but I just don't buy it. I will acknowledge that he's a pretty good actor. Whether you are a Scientologist or not, you can't not come away from this without at least considering that Jason Beghe has some interesting personal integrity issues. C'mon, 14 years in Scientology! I'll admit to being excited about Amway for about a week, and I'm not even a street-wise New York born Hollywood professional. Perhaps there's more to Scientology than Jason Beghe's spin zone tale of woe. The general public has known Tom Cruise for awhile, but Jason Beghe as never been nor will probably ever be a household name. If he'd suffered any other misfortune, it wouldn't be a story worth the media's attention. He's not as cute as Lindsay Lohan, so a DUI wouldn't spark his publicity. He's no Mel Gibson, so an anti-Semetic rant would probably go unnoticed. One way or another, Jason Beghe's success is rolling along because of in spite of Scientology. Either way... Speaking of the "other side of the story", Scientology has one. Many Scientologists, who Beghe STILL credits as "good people", have plenty to say in support of Scientology and in their own ability to be individuals. Beghe talks Scientology savvy but he doesn't speak for Scientologists, plus he reverses key Scientology fundamentals for his own dramatic effects. His complete story must be a real doozy. A truly compassionate humanitarian like L.Ron Hubbard would probably say have something like this to say about Jason Beghe: "He'll get it all sorted out on up the line." To Beghe, I say: "You can't handle the truth!" Posted by: Sec at April 21, 2008 7:54 PM WOW! Not only a stunning and gripping interview, but also so many profound and thorough comments!! Kudos to all of you and God bless! Posted by: Jules at April 21, 2008 8:17 PM I see in Jason disillusionment, resentment, regret.....but also hope for the future. Jason, thank you for sharing your story; I hope you find the answers you’re looking for, and I wish for you nothing but blessings and happiness. Posted by: Sherry at April 21, 2008 8:19 PM There but for the grace of God might have gone I, in my younger and more vulnerable years. I think it's just terrific that this man has shared his wrenching personal experiences and find it hard to believe that Scientology has managed to silence so many for so long. But thanks to this interview, I see how they manage to do it. Well, may this be the beginning of the end for the cultists who have hounded people into silence and isolation. May each and every "celebrity" who continues to shill for Scientology be called to task for what they may be leading others into. Thank you for having the guts to link this interview by the man who had the guts to give it to the man who had the guts to film it and post it. May everyone with guts stay safe and out of harm's way. Posted by: The Truth at April 21, 2008 9:46 PM VV: Excellent reporting on the Beghe-Scientology story. For more on Scientology, visit: http://xenu.net Posted by: L. Ron Brown "it makes me feel baaad" Posted by: m. cameron at April 21, 2008 10:12 PM I just became a HUGE fan of Jason Beghe's! I will in future watch, buy and rent every movie or TV show that he will appear in (I forsee a mega movie deal in his future now that his brains aren't scrambled like Thetan Clusters!!) and I'm going to start with his classic Monkey Shines. Thank-you Jason for speaking out so unreservedly and honestly about your experiences in the Co$. Posted by: Sunny at April 21, 2008 10:59 PM All I can say is after watching this is, Posted by: randomx at April 22, 2008 12:50 AM beautifully put. an amazing interview with sincere insight. his honesty and genuine personality comes across. ty for this inght Jason. bravo! Posted by: anonfreedomintruth at April 22, 2008 1:17 AM To: "A Scientologist Responds." After reading your comment, it seems clear to me that you did not watch the entire interview. Please do, I think it will clear up some of the missing DATA for you. It is a shame that you, as a "scientologist" were unable to put this in perspective. As an outsider, I find it interesting that any Scientologist would feel the need to attack Jason after seeing this series of videos. He said what he felt, and that is far more powerful than any "church" propaganda that you spew out to the masses. Why is it that Jason should not disseminate THE TRUTH about your "church", whereas the Scientologists can say whatever they want about this man who stayed loyal as long as he was brainwashed to do so. Being a human in the real world gives you psychic abilities, and I predict a shortened life for the Church of Scientology, thanks to people like Jason Beghe, who will keep children and other people from being sucked into the vacuum that is the Church of Scientology. My wish is that all Scientologists be honest with themselves. No more
justification! The truth is there, should you choose to acknowledge
it. Posted by: AC2 at April 22, 2008 1:34 AM Sec, I guess you had to try given crashing stats 'n all, but we all know about the Co$'s policy of "handling" negative criticism by smearing the critic. How do we know? Becoz we read the internets and find out for ourselves. Um, that's how real TOTAL FREEDOM works. Unlike LRH tech, which doesn't. Pro-tip: If Jason is upset because his wee son was kicked out of his day-care and lost his friends at a time when the family was busy with a new babe and in the process of moving, I don't think there are any of us Wogs who are going to fault him for that. Though we may fault you for accusing him of lying when he's expressing the concerns of any normal loving parent. And, since Jason didn't seem to know so perhaps you don't either, Wogs everywhere will tell you that Tom Cruise, in that leaked in-house video, LOOKS AND ACTS INSANE. Scientology's Ideal? Now that is scary. Posted by: I See Wut U Did Thar at April 22, 2008 2:47 AM Dear Sec, 1. Q: Why was Jason upset that his son was "kicked out" of a "Scientology school" AFTER he left Scientology? A: Because his little boy lost all his friends (who presumably, aged 4, weren’t driving him insane) at once. His son was sad and lost. Of course Dad was upset. 2. “Psychiatry’s side” - By that, Jason meant “what will psychiatry argue against the CCHR data?” He wanted to be prepared to put CCHR’s case against the best arguments psychiatry could put up to counter it. But no one in CCHR could articulate psychiatry’s arguments. 3. Jason told about his first and most significant win on day 1. He also said that he had many wins in the early years. He was honest about that – and honest about the fact that he’s struggling to explain fully how he could have “bought” the con for so long. It’s not hard for many of us to understand when we compare Jason’s experience to that of anyone who has stayed in an abusive relationship for too long. The person is usually in denial – trying to hold onto their image of the other person and the relationship even though the facts have begun to show that person/relationship doesn’t or no longer exists. The human mind has incredible capacity to lie to self. I do accept that this is evidence of a lack of integrity, but only in the sense that no one has 100% integration of thoughts, beliefs, values and actions. We’re all a little dis-integrated. The more dis-integrated, the less sane we are. But the sanest among us have the capacity, often hard won, to see our own internal inconsistencies and to be moving toward integration. So, actually, I see Jason has a man of great (and growing) personal integrity and that, ultimately, is why he couldn’t keep holding onto the beliefs when the facts showed him those beliefs were false. Some people can never screw up the courage to face that reality. To me, this ‘journey’ – to use the cliché – toward personal integrity is the essence of spirituality. 4. Jason doesn't suggest that he speaks for Scientologists; only for himself. 5. You say to Jason, "You can't handle the truth!" Obviously, I saw in those videos a man who is willing to confront his own mistakes and, as he put it, “stupidity” – and to admit to the world his own complicity in fooling himself. I guess I’d ask you, in the quietness of your soul, whether you are able and willing to consider the possibility that you, too, are fooling yourself that all is okay when reality says otherwise. I wish you peace. Posted by: Plups at April 22, 2008 3:34 AM Haha folks look at that last line from "Sec" up above. Even after all the pain Jason Beghe has gone through, he thinks that "just a little more! (money and time)" is the answer. The answers are not there, it's a sham, it is a fraud, it is a lie. That kind of thinking is exactly what people end up like. They trap THEMSELVES in the cult thinking "oh maybe if I just do THIS it will get better" but it never does. I see that same kind of thinking when reading accounts from battered women. They think that "oh maybe tomorrow it will get better" but it never does. Wake up, people still in scientology, and see this charade for what it is. Posted by: Jefferson B. Clark at April 22, 2008 3:45 AM @Sec Wow, I'm not really sure where to begin with your post, besides pointing out the obvious fallacies and lies in it. First of all, Jason was very clear that he DID experience wins. The greatest, according to him, was on the first day, before he got into Scientology proper. And, as he stated, the wins got fewer and not as impressive as he went up the bridge. The fact that you don't acknowledge this only proves that you did not take the time to listen, REALLY listen and understand what Jason said. Quoting you: "And now everyone, Scientologist or not, is just supposed to
believe his rant? How masochistic is that? How victim is that?" You spew a lot of impressive-sounding rhetoric about how L. Ron studied and accumulated psychiatric and psychological techniques. This should be no surprise to anyone, for he stole the bulk of his Dianetics and many Scientology "techs" straight from other psychologists! Interestingly enough, you say that L. Ron expounded upon "the workabilities and unworkabilities" of psychology. Unfortunately, no data is presented by Mr. L. Ron, or the data was fabricated. You know this and I know this. L. Ron was a smart man but also a pathological liar. "I know that he attempts to address his experience and the years, but I just
don't buy it." "Whether you are a Scientologist or not, you can't not come away from this
without at least considering that Jason Beghe has some interesting personal
integrity issues." "Perhaps there's more to Scientology than Jason Beghe's spin zone tale of
woe." To those Scientologists who are reading this - wake up and come up to present time. Doubt condition is the first step to the truth. Walk into the light. You needn't be afraid of the theta traps that have been laid before you. All you need to do is to take the first step. Anonymous invites you to rejoin the world. We are legion. Posted by: an anon at April 22, 2008 3:58 AM Leave Scientology AAAALLLLLONNNNE !!!(sob) Posted by: chris crocker at April 22, 2008 4:36 AM As a Scientologist for 34 years I can speak directly to the other side of
this story. I've continued studying and applying Scientology because it works.
It is a very difficult path that requires significant self-discipline and
commitment. The results in bettering one's life and the lives' of one's fellows
are tremendous. It is a highly structured sequence of steps and to me the key
has always been ensuring I fully grasped the step before moving on to the next.
Posted by: Merrill at April 22, 2008 9:51 AM this is amazing! I am glad that this has come out and spread light on what seems to turly be an evil phenomenon Posted by: Joiswe at April 22, 2008 10:03 AM BRAVO - speak out Jason. Shame on John Travolta, Kelly Preston, Kirstie Ally, Tom Cruise, Lisa Marie and Priscilla Presley, The Masterson brothers and Beck. Shame on all of you for being so full of yourself and easily duped. Shame on you for being treated as special elites in your Celebrity Center. Shame on you for leading others into a cult. PRAISE to Jason Beghe for being man enough to step out and not being afraid of ridicule or retaliation from the Scientologists (a real concern). Hopefully his friends, family and police can keep him safe. Posted by: RJP3 at April 22, 2008 10:22 AM sec.. i'm pretty certain that it is infact you who cant handle the truth..... seeing one of your idols waking up and realising he's been conned... then writing an essay to discredit him...with possibly some of the most feeble points ever... shiiit.... wake up.. Posted by: non at April 22, 2008 10:27 AM In the 90's I read Jason Beghe's first interview in Scientology's Celebrity Magazine. Lots of progress and lots of big wins-- according to Beghe. A few years later, I saw a video of Jason sharing his successes from a high level set of processes called the "L's". Again, Beghe was very enthusiastic about his many gains. He was very much just being himself at that time too. Nobody else was speaking for him. Again, there's an integrity issue here. Just keeping it real. Posted by: SEC at April 22, 2008 12:29 PM Re: domestic abuse: Many people who study cults (such as rick ross) refer to abusive domestic relationships as "one on one cults" precisly because the systems of control are so similar. There are even a few books written on the comparison. Posted by: psyborgue at April 22, 2008 1:01 PM Merrill: I'd believe your comments more if you didn't cut and paste the same commentary here: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article It shows very well that you didn't bother reading any of the comments made in either place. Did you even bother watching the videos? SEC: Jason actually makes reference to making the videos you mention in the interviews and how he wasn't really all that happy but he put on the face for the videos (he is an actor after all). He addressed all that in the videos, did you even watch them? Posted by: User Name at April 22, 2008 1:16 PM I really hope Scientologists get to see this. If that dosent wake you up, bad news for you- youre too far gone. Its really cool to see how he's not really pro-anything be it anonymous, or (hahahah) Phyciatry, and is hesitant to talk about stuff he does not know. Unlike some other people i can think if (History of phyciatry anyone? how about who the authorityes on the mind are?) Posted by: Anonisanon at April 22, 2008 1:19 PM @sec He said IN THE VIDEOS if you watched any of them. He said his first couple years in scientology were great, his last 8 or so years were hell. Posted by: alright at April 22, 2008 1:22 PM SEC - Doubt it not a crime. Questioning is not treason. Come up to present time. Posted by: Lala Dipsy and Poe at April 22, 2008 2:04 PM Sec, lets face it, there is no reasoning with someone on autopilot, and you are on autopilot. It's your job to post here and 'dead agent' the heartfelt and convincing interview statements Beghe made. You don't have to courage to watch and listen to the complete interview. If you had, you would understand why Beghe's no longer willing to go along with the con game we all were deceived by, yourself included. As long as you are afraid to think for yourself, and evaluate the information on both sides of this issue, you are going to be at the mercy of fear. THAT is not what integrity and your code of honor is about. If you paid over 1 million dollars or even just 100 dollars to scientology for what was supposed to be the best of services life can provide for the spirit and got more and more messed up as time and sessions went by ( as has happened to many ) you would probably be willing to see that there is something so wrong with the picture that there is a possibility that it was all based upon lies. Most likely you are a poor staff member, deprived of proper food and shelter, family ties, the basic enjoyments of life given up in exchange for what Beghe describes ( and I have observed )as a selfless life of helping where group entrapment and compliance is the product. You didn't come into scientology to become what you have been made into. None of us did. Your integrity begins with your essential right to think for yourself and Scientologists are conditioned to discard that right. Listen to the video interview in full. be willing to consider what he's saying by taking off the blinders. It was a relieve for me after 18 years to finally think for myself and do what was right as opposed to what scientology dictated I should think. There are more former scientologists out in the 'wog world' than there are in scientology and there is a reason for that. Stop being afraid to think for yourself. Posted by: Mary at April 22, 2008 2:05 PM so, sec. which is it? is he lying now or was he lying then? you need to wrap your head around one concept: scientologists LIE, especially when they are trying to prove to people how well scientology WORKS. i dare you, DARE you, to submit your "science" to a completely impartial third-party investigation. if it were all proven to be bullshit (some of it has been, just flip over that e-meter at your next audit) would that make you open your eyes? sure, from within, the wins look like HUGE SUCCESSES...but from outside, it is painfully obvious that you're celebrating the equivalent of a free-thinker learning to tie his/her shoes. i mean, sitting down, eyes closed, and becoming aware of yourself? come on. that can be done for free. besides, even if scientology gives some adherents "wins"...how can you justify all the crimes the "church" has comitted over the years? you name it, theyve done it...extortion, assault, treason, espionage..fuck, even pet-killing. open your eyes, sec. WATCH the video in its entirety. free yourself. Posted by: WHICHISIT at April 22, 2008 3:05 PM Beghe speaks for himself. Whether he was lying then or lying now is actually anyone's guess, no matter what side you're on. Anyone can believe anything or anyone they decide to. If you're against Scientology, Beghe can now be YOUR hero. When in Scientology, he was preaching to the crowd. So now he's preaching to the opposite crowd. He's good at that. Probably qualifies him to run for president in 2012. Truth and integrity are minor considerations in politics too. Most of you could vote for him with a clear conscience I'm sure-- and nothing would change in that area either as a result. Believe Jason Beghe, only if and because he suits YOUR agenda. That's easy. Obviously I'm not preaching to the crowd here. That would be easy too. I still have a point of view, and don't need anyone's license to survive in or out of Scientology. So what? Posted by: SEC at April 22, 2008 5:11 PM Can he say one &%#£%! sentence without using the %&#"£! F-word? The parts of the inteview I have seen so far appear as just bad acting to me. Hollywood drama. If you use the F-word you get people nowadays to listen. They mistake cussing for sincerity. And if it isn't acting - so what if he "escaped" the cult? You don't lead people to Jesus by complaining about some cult you were dumb enough to enter, and then using foul language that nobody(?) can bear listen to (if they're hooked up right). Posted by: Matt at April 22, 2008 6:09 PM Sec you do realize most of us who are vaguely familliar with the methods scientologists use to discredit those who dissent online recognize everything you are saying as coming directly out of the scientologist playbook... I would like to hear what YOU think not some constantly regurgitated crap... Posted by: gah at April 22, 2008 6:14 PM Sec you do realize most of us who are vaguely familliar with the methods scientologists use to discredit those who dissent online recognize everything you are saying as coming directly out of the scientologist playbook... I would like to hear what YOU think not some constantly regurgitated crap... Posted by: gah at April 22, 2008 6:15 PM open your eyes, sec. just admit to yourself that you've made a mistake. that's the first step to being truly free from this cult. if you can accept that fact, you can get help ... there are people that want to help you. fuck their stats. why should you sacrifice your ability to think critically, make up your own mind, in the interests of defending a cult that would turn on you in an instant? you must know that, i mean...look at what youre being made to do right now. think, sec. just sit back, for five minutes, and THINK. |
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Television Star Exits Scientology
photo Trap-Two-Zero Productions Inc. Beghe Jason
Ruggedly handsome actor Jason Beghe was best man at the wedding of "X-Files" star David Duchovny (his childhood pal) and actress Tea Leoni. In 1998, he starred as Demi Moore’s love interest in "G.I. Jane." He’s been featured in numerous TV dramas such as "Criminal Minds," "Numb3rs" and "CSI." In 2005, Beghe appeared in promotional spots for the Church of Scientology. But now, Beghe has escaped the church after taking courses since 1994. He’s made a video that’s up on YouTube. This is what he has to say: "Scientology is destructive and a rip-off." He also says: "It’s very, very dangerous for your spiritual, psychological, mental, emotional health and evolution. I think it stunts your evolution. If Scientology is real, then something’s f---ed up." You can see from the video that Beghe does not mince words. But his refreshing candor about the religion he joined in 1994 should shake the Celebrity Center to its core. "It ain’t deliverin’ what it’s promised. It sure has not." The video is billed as a three-minute teaser to a longer interview with Beghe that’s on its way. But the short video packs a powerful punch. Beghe still uses a lot of Scientology lingo like "OT" and "clear." Still, it’s quite easy to understand the point he’s making. After 14 years and a tremendous amount of money, he’s seeing Scientology in a different light. Beghe has completed so many courses that he’s considered a top Scientologist, or "OT 5" — similar to Tom Cruise, John Travolta and Kirstie Alley. But Beghe reveals: "The further up the bridge, the worse you get." He adds: "I don’t have an agenda. I’m just trying to help. I have the luxury of having gotten into Scientology and after having been in it, been out. And that’s a perspective that people who are still in and not out do not have." Actor: Scientology Is 'Brainwashing' Jason Beghe is the bravest actor in Hollywood. He’s come clean about his 14 years in Scientology, the religion that Tom Cruise reveres. He says the purpose of Scientology is to create a "brainwashed, robotic version of you." He also says that he spent about $1 million to work his way up the Scientology ladder to become what’s known as an "OT5 auditor," or someone who listens to new members and teaches them the ropes. He was so successful as a celebrity auditor, he says, that David Miscavige, the head of the sect, referred to him as "the poster boy for Scientology." But now that Beghe and his wife have left the sect, the actor has concerns. They can be, he says, a vicious and vindictive group. When he asked for money back that he had banked for future study — some $60,000 to $70,000 — it was returned and he was banished. Once you ask for refund and repayment, that’s what it’s called, you’re not allowed to take another course or speak to another Scientologist ever again," Beghe says. On Tuesday, I told you that Beghe had posted a three-minute "teaser" video explaining a little about his exit from Scientology. A second, longer video will be going up on YouTube Wednesday or Thursday. It’s not to make money or to get publicity for himself, Beghe says, and I believe him. "If it helps people, that’s what’s important." And that’s because Beghe says that most Scientologists are completely insulated from the criticism that we all read or publish. All the jokes, the "South Park" stuff, anti-cult stories, real data about people who’ve suffered inside the sect largely go unnoticed by the Scientology community. "They just say, 'You don’t understand.'" Beghe is just beginning to comprehend what an impact his announcement has made. It should rock the world of celebrity Scientologists, the people Miscavige has counted on to carry the sect’s message to the outside world and make it seem plausible. But Beghe says not all the celebrity Scientologists are completely "in." Kirstie Alley, he says, is a friend and "could be gotten out." Tom Cruise, he says, was out for several years. "He was brought back in around the time of his divorce from Nicole Kidman. And then they put him through something called Ethics Cycle after Penelope Cruz left. That’s when you make amends for having not been in it for a while." Cruise’s Ethics Cycle, Beghe thinks, would account for the campaign Cruise went on while filming "War of the Worlds," through the meeting, courting and recruiting of Katie Holmes, the fight with Matt Lauer on "Today" and telling Diane Sawyer what kind of Scientologist he was on ABC — not to mention the couch-jumping on "Oprah." Beghe, for one, says he was not a good celebrity Scientologist. "They would ask me to come to parties for Tom or John (Travolta); I would say 'yes' and not go." Indeed, Beghe says he’s spent the last eight years trying to leave Scientology. "It was good for the first three years or so. But then I got nothing out of it." "Scientology," Beghe says, "delivers what it promises under the guise of tearing away falsity, neuroses, psychoses. It creates a brainwashed, robotic version of you. It’s a ‘Matrix’ of you, so you’re communicating with people all the time using Scientology. So we’re seeing you ‘via’ Scientology. And it creates an addiction, so you come back for more." He says that he initially was recruited through acting teacher Milton Katselas’ class. Katselas has been cited in many publications, including The New York Times, for exerting pressure on his students to join the sect. "He gets kickbacks," Beghe says. Among Katselas’ students have been at least half a dozen celebrity Scientologists, including Giovanni Ribisi (who is thought to have recruited "My Name Is Earl" star Jason Lee and, in turn, Ethan Suplee) and his sister, Marisa, Leah Remini and Anne Archer. Beghe was brought to the Scientology center in Hollywood by Bodhi Elfman, husband of actress Jenna Elfman, who was in Katselas’ class. His appointment was for 10 a.m. He wound up staying at least 12 hours, as the sect’s auditors embarked on their "brainwashing." It was just before his career was taking off with a role as Demi Moore’s love interest in "G.I. Jane." "David Miscavige loved me. He took me to Hemet" — the Scientology fortress in the California mountains — "and he came with me to the premiere of 'G.I. Jane.' He let me do voice-overs for Scientology instructional videos, which was unheard of. And it would take a year to do a 15-minute video; he was that meticulous." But in a short time, Beghe saw that things were not going so well. "I was unhappy and depressed. They would say it was their fault, the way they were handling my ‘case.’ And I’d flip out another $50,000 for another course." Beghe says the biggest question at Scientology is where all the money has gone. "You never get any answers about it," he says. "And it’s all about money." It took Beghe and his wife, Angie — whom he’d brought into the sect and who also achieved the high level of OT5 — more than a year to negotiate their way out. (Their first child even endured the Scientology "silent birth" we’ve heard so much about.) Beghe says during that time his relations with his family and friends — like childhood pal David Duchovny — were strained. "Things are much better now with everyone," Beghe says. |
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Jason Beghe on Scientology Today Tonight Australia reports on Jason Beghe speaking out about the cult of scientology after leaving. Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--61oEkWGvM |
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Television Star Exits Scientology Cet aarticle du villagevoice.com explique que Jason Beghe exige que lui soient rendus les dossiers d'audition que la scientologie enregistre à longueur de séance. L'acteur qui les réclame explique aussi que la scientologie enregistre pas mal de séance en vidéo à l'insu des clients, et que vraisemblablement, Tom Cruise ignore qu'il a été enregistré. Actor
Jason Beghe: Scientology's First Celebrity Defector Reveals Church
Secrets
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Bravo! Spread this like wildfire.
inb4 Terry Olsen
Posted by: anon at April 21, 2008 10:57 AM